Help Me!

Have you been sent a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) for allgedly stopping in a box junction? Are you feeling mad? Read this, it might help.

If you need help fending off bailiffs then read this post.

Do not be afraid to challenge the PCN

A challenge is in two stages:

1. You “make representation” against the PCN to the local council that issued the PCN. They then write back and cancel the PCN or reject your representation.

2. Assuming they reject your initial challenge you can then appeal to the Parking And Traffic Appeals Service (PATAS). This is an independent tribunal where you will get a fair hearing by an adjudicator.

The odds are you will win if you appeal

Less than 1% of people sent a ticket appeal. If you appeal the odds are about 3:2 in your favour. A lot of the time local councils do not contest appeals because it is cheaper to loose £100 than spend say £500 on a challenge. PATAS is funded by a 65p levy on every PCN issued. The more contests, the higher the levy.

The Local Councils make mistakes

CCTV enforcement of box junctions is relatively new and a lot of councils are having trouble complying with the law. The chances are they have made a mistake somewhere. The box junction itself may not be legal, or the wording of the PCN may not be correct. They are still learning, and a lot of the time it is us ‘victims’ that are doing the teaching.

Help is at hand

It’s mainly down to self-help. I am willing to assist and I am always on the lookout for test cases, but you will have to do some of the legwork – and be prepared to take a risk. There is no ‘magic bullet’ (yet); we are still accumulating a case history. Leave a message below and I will get back to you.

Some other sites that might be of help are:

Fightback Forums (leave a message in the Parking Tickets Forum)

AppealNow

Ticketbusters

TicketFighter

RMB Consulting

Let me know if these are any good and if you find others.

372 Responses to Help Me!

  1. Mark Turner says:

    Have recieved a PCN stating an offence occured on the 01/11/2006 on the 12/12/2006 don’t they have to send you the letter within 28 days of the offence occuring? also the cctv footage shows a date of the 01/12/2006. Think someone made a bo bo any ideas?

    • Ben Fernandes says:

      Dear Sir,
      Please find matters relating to my PCN: http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=8e5594ac7a4e89ae9554bcb26e030e8246ccae41
      Grateful for your comments,I remember the incident as I was very annoyed at the time ,the motorist concerned was very aggressive and rude,he did not so much as even thank me for stopping,in fact i had to make an emergency stop or there would have been a collision.Your help will be greatly appreciated.

      Regards,

      Ben

    • mel says:

      Hello, I received a PCN for entering and stopong in abox junction at the slip rd near the ne bnd, A4/H’SMITH F, Great West Rd. I am definitely going to appeal because I entered the box when the traffic was moving until the car in front of me stopped and a car was behind me boxing me in. When I entered the box there was no visibility of any congestion ahead. Please advise?

  2. Hi Mark,

    In part 2 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003

    Section 6 [entitled] Limitation on service of penalty charge notice [states]

    (1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply ocurred.

    If the date of the alledged contravention (not offence) on the PCN is 1/11/2006 and the date of issue is 12/12/2006 then the PCN is invalid. Case closed.

    Garbage in garbage out…

    • colin says:

      The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007

      Part 2, Section 10 states:

      (4) Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a civil enforcement officer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

      (5) Paragraph (6) applies where—

      (a) within 14 days of the appropriate date the enforcement authority has requested the Secretary of State to supply the relevant particulars in respect of the vehicle involved in the contravention and those particulars have not been supplied before the expiration of the 28-day period.

      This gives the authority up to 6 months to serve PCN, providing they can prove that information request was sent to DVLA within 14 days

      Colin

  3. steve ronson says:

    Hi Mark.
    I was issued with a pcn for stopping in a box junction on liverpool rd islington. In neither of the images on my pcn is the registration mark of the vehicle visable. It is completely obscured by the vehicle in front. Do you know if the council would have stored other still images or have video evidence of the vehicle. If not I was considering challenging the pcn as I am not sure if it my vehicle.
    Thanks for your help.
    Regards,
    Steve.

  4. Paul says:

    I have been issued with a PCN from TFL regarding contravention code 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.

    Can you or anyone advise on the following:

    1) Wording of the PCN Issued:

    1a) PCN states “Date of Notice:” but does not state “Date of Contravention:”

    1b) PCN does not state the make or model of the vehicle, just the registration

    1c) Contravention code is just 31 and not 31j (indicating CCTV)

    1d) the word “number” is omitted from vehicle registration and penalty charge notice, e.g. should it state penalty charge notice number and vehicle registration number?

    Is there any legistlation that lays out the required wording of the notice?

    2) The vehicle in question is a leased company car. Are there provisions for extending the time limit between the date of contravention and date of notice beyond 28 days. Date of contravention was 23/11/2006 and date of notice is 10/01/2007. I have yet to personally receive a PCN in relation to this offence, the PCN I refer to above is the one my company has been issued with as the registered keeper – no doubt I will get my own one in the post when the company tells TFL that they believe I was the driver.

    3) From the photos provided, I cannot see the VRN or distiguish my car. I have a silver car and there are 2 silver type cars in the photo. One appears to have the rear of the car over the box junction (just) and another is on the box junction but is obscured by the van in front of it. If TFL have not clearly identified which car is subject to the contravention and I cannot easily identifiy my own car, how can I decide whether to challenge the PCN based on this vague CCTV image?

    Thanks in anticipation of your help.

    Paul

  5. Pritesh Khambatta says:

    Hi Mark,
    I recieved a PCN dated on the 21/02/07 for a contravention dated on the 31/01/07. The alleged traffic contravention of Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited in Ruislip Road, Jcn of Mansell Road, Greenford, UB6.

    I drove past the junction this morning, and notice there was a small dome camera on a lamp post close to the box junction. Also there are no signs to indicate a ‘banned box junction’.
    If any camera is situated on the road, it’s my understanding, that there should be signage warning off the camera. ie. speed cameras are not legal until the proper signage is in place.
    I will be taking some photos of the junction showing no signs in place, incase I have a case.

    Thanks for your help
    Pritesh Khambatta

  6. T.Silver says:

    I have just received a PCN box junction notice. It states that I ‘stopped in a box junction (on the yellow crosses) when prohibited’. It was apparently observed by a real time camera.
    The actual circumstances were that I was 4/5 cars back from red traffic lights when they changed green. The cars ahead of me proceeded across the box with me following the car in front into the box as the exit was clear for the driver in front. I was about to leave the box on the other side when the cars ahead of me suddenly came to a halt and I was stuck on the edge of the box for 12 seconds (according to the notice) until the lights turned from green to red.
    The accompanying photo shows my car stopped clearly behind a white car which has just left the box with a blue car, being half way into the box, stuck behind me; we are all about a metre apart from each other.
    Do I have a chance of contesting this as the exit to the box was apparently clear when the queue of cars I was in proceeded into it? The live operator must have seen the circumstances but has decided to take pictures for apparently an easy way of collecting money.
    Any ideas are welcome. Many thanks.

  7. Akil Moghal says:

    Hello,

    I have received a PCN for “Enetering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”. The junction in question is the one on Green Lanes junction with Endymion Road. I do not believe that I am in the wrong, but was forced to stop because the vehicle infront decides to change from the left hand lane to right hand lane causing me to stop. The left hand lane (my lane) is clear and i could have cleared the box.

    I would really appreciate any help/advice on tackling the PCN correctly.

    Kind regards,

    Akil

  8. Sandra Ifield says:

    Hello,
    I received a PCN for “entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”. It states incorrectly that this box junction is in Eardley Road when in fact it is actually in Greyhound Lane. It also states that I was stationary within the junction but all 5 pictures taken have exactly the same time on them.
    The circumstance are very similar to a case above. A new set of lights have been installed in Greyhound Lane so you think you have a clear exit out of the box but then a red light several cars further on then stops you completely clearing it. I am not obstructing the flow of traffic at any time. Is there anything I can do?
    Many thanks for your help.
    Sandra

    • alay says:

      hi sandra, not sure if you got your money back, i am in the process of appealing for the same thing. I’m trying to get hold of as many people as possible so we can all get our money back from those theiving scoundrels! Please let me know what happended with your.

  9. Susan Woodward says:

    Hi,
    Thanks for this informative blog! I have been issued a PCN : 31 (E and S in BJ when P) It has correctly identified the junction as Battersea Bridge Road/Westbridge Road. There are 2 photos. In photo 1 my rear wheels are clearly inside the box – but by a matter of inches! I am in no way blocking anyone. It is clear that there is a huge traffic jam ahead that I recall at the time was moving erratically. The second close up picture of the car shows the numberplate clearly, but does not show any yellow lines near my car. (that may be resolved if the shot is zoomed out) There is a 12 second time difference between the 2 shots.
    I telephoned the enquiry line and asked if they had any further shots of my car – they said they had one after the “offence” but none showing me entering the box. Is that sufficient grounds for an appeal? Or is the adjudicator likely to take pity on me as I am clearly not obstructing anyone and have just been caught out by erratically moving traffic? My recollection is that I was just crawling along with everyone else when the traffic stopped and I was caught short by a matter of inches. It wasn’t as if I flagrantly entered the box with no regard to other traffic.
    Any advice you can give me much appreciated.
    regards
    susan

    • Chris says:

      Hello Susan,

      I have exactly the same ticket in exactly the same location, I am furious and am doing my best to look for a suitable resaon that will get me off the ticket.

      Have you had any luck so far?

      Regards,

      Chris

    • kenneth says:

      Hi Susan,

      I too have received the exact same ticket in the same location and I am looking to contest the PCN. I have a very similar situation to that of yours, but also involving a TFL bus. Were you successful in you appeal?

      Any advice you can give me could be grately received

      Regards,

      Kenneth

      • Venkat says:

        Hi Keneth, Susan, Chris,
        I have a similar situation and need your help in writting back to them with reason. do you guys have any sample format
        thanks

  10. adam colwill says:

    Do you know if the council have a time limit to reply to arepresentation, I sent 3 off between oct and dec last yr and have only just recieved a rejection of representation now?
    Any help would be great.
    Thanks
    Adam

  11. Pip says:

    Hi there…my case is very similar to Susan Woodward’s above. Same contravention, same day, same place in Battersea. Again the traffic was moving erratically, and again my back wheels alone are in the yellow box and I am in no way blocking the traffic crossing the junction. The main difference is that the second shot (with a 12 second interval shows me in the same place and the operator has not zoomed in).

    There are several reasons that I do not feel I should pay this PCN:

    1) I may have stopped in the box but only did so because it was beyond my control. If I had been able to anticipate that the traffic would suddenly stop I wouldn’t have continued across the junction. I, as much as anyone else, get incredibly irritated with people who selfishly and deliberately park their cars in the centre of a junction cutting off traffic coming in the other direction and would never deliberately do it purposely myself.

    2) What does the council expect us to do? Hang back at the start of every junction just in case the traffic stops? If everyone did this wouldn’t it slow the traffic down still further causing even more congestion? The fact that I make this trip almost every day and that making this same mistake again is to a degree unavoidable upsets and intimidates me enormously.

    3) The level of the fine – £100 (going up to £150 after 28 days)
    This is an extortionate amount to be fined for unintentionally remaining static in a junction box for a matter of seconds, and the punishment clearly doesn’t match the crime. A parking offence is arguably far more intentional and controllable, yet it is levied at approx half the amount in Central London. Why is this? And don’t even get me started on making comparisons with the paltry fines faced by hardened criminals in court…..how can a fine of this enormity for this crime be legal?

    So…to summarise…under the rules of the PCN it feels like I don’t have a leg to stand on without going down the route of demanding video evidence and that even then I probably won’t be able to make a case. At the end of the day I want to appeal because I feel that this new method of fining is incredibly unjust and that the council’s reasons for taking action in this way is at best dubious and at worst criminal. What are the points that you feel I should emphasise in my appeal in order to get the results I’m looking for? Are there any clever angles I can take?

    Any advice would be extremely gratefully received.
    Best wishes
    Pip

  12. Rodney says:

    Hi Mark

    I am another one that has been caught on a video camera with the back end of my car in a yellow box junction and like many other people here I was not restricting or stopping the flow of traffic in any way.

    What is very obvious from the video still is that I have stopped at the pedestrian crossing at the other side of the junction In the video still a group of people which includes a mother with her push chair at the front of this group are wanting to cross the road, I seem to remember in the highway code that you are to exercise caution when approaching such places.

    What is also obvious in the video still is that you cannot stop at the pedestrian crossing without being in the box junction as it overlap the junction by a good half car length, was I supposed to ignore these people or run them over is they attempted to cross in slow moving traffic

  13. Rodney says:

    It is not the £50 it is the total lack of common sense by the council camera operator. Whilst driving am I supposed to just ignore other road and highway users?

  14. Andy says:

    Like Akil, I received a PCN for stopping in the box junction between Green Lanes and Endymion Road and likewise I was forced to stop because a car changed lanes and cut in front of me, I had to stop to avoid a collision.

    I will appeal against this, and I urge EVERYBODY to appeal against these fines.

    I will post again to update you on the progress of my appeal.

    Great site, keep up the good work!

  15. Gary says:

    Hi I have also ben vitim of the green Lane camera operator recording my vehicle with the rear of my car in the box due to the driver in front stopping to change lane. So good lucj to all that ar going to appeal these stupid pnc’s

  16. david marshall says:

    hi, i received a pcn from the Liverpool Road and Broomfield Street box junction which i paid last december, and always thought it was unfair. a friend told me about this site so i have cut and pasted the appeal which you had on this site for the same junction and am intending sending it to islington parking services in the hope of a refund. david marshall.

    • Jon says:

      Ive been caught or rather trapped at the same Bromfield Rd/Liverpool st box junction – what appeal are you referring to? Jon

  17. E D Walters says:

    I have recently received a PCN from Lambeth council for a box junction near Streatham Vale station which never use to be a problem until they installed new traffic lights about 50 yards down, these lights are not in sync with the box junction, the lights at the box are still green when the new lights turn red and therefore there is no way that cars will not be caught in the box, also traffic turning right is never impeded and those wanting to turn left can’t because the lights lower down are on red, this is more aggravated at rush hour times thanks for the law on junctions which i shall use in my appeal aas i feel this box is not legal as the council cause the problem by the installation of the new lights.

  18. E D W – Is the location of Sandra Ifield’s (above) the same as yours?

  19. E D Walters says:

    yes it is but mine states that i am in streatham vale, and it is the same junction I too was heading toward the station when the lights changed, I was just in front of Eardley road and not obstructing the flow of traffic either also thanks to your first letter I think my notice is invalid the alleged traffic cotravention was on the 19/03/07 and my notice was served on the 20/06/07 so if your opinion is right that it should have been sent out within 28 days of the contravention this notice would be invalid

  20. Yes, the law states that the PCN must be issued within 28 days of the alledged contravention. In Mark’s case the PCN was cancelled. Write a letter to the Council making representations on that basis. Do not send the original PCN back – keep it as evidence just in case they try to cover up their mistake.

  21. E D Walters says:

    Thanks moneyboxjunction will let you know how I got on

  22. Kieran Donley says:

    Hi there.
    I have recieved a PCN for entering a yellow box on east hill/ st anne’s hill sw18
    On the 2 b/w photos the numberplate is not visible, and although it looks like my vehicle,
    i do not remember being there or getting stuck in a box – something about which i am
    fanatically careful about avoiding. In any case, if it was me, it looks like the way looked clear, but
    i am prevented from moving by the vehicle in front which has plenty of space to move into.
    I wish to appeal – is the lacking numberplate sufficient cause?

    Great site by the way.

    Yours,

    Kieran.

  23. Oh, and by the way, we’re moving out of London, it has become a very unpleasant place to live.

  24. Mahesh says:

    Hi,
    I have recieved a PCN from Ealing for a box junction contravention near joseph’s drive.
    I cant remember the incident but I am sure it must be something urgent that may have caused me to stop on the box. I would never stop on a box jn/keep clear intentionally.

    The notice did not have the contravention number mentioned anywhere on the letter. Does that make a difference?

    Thanks

    Mahesh

  25. Vaughan says:

    I have received a PCN for stopping in a box junction in Leytonstone, near the Green Man roundabout.

    I checked the approach roads to this junction and apart from one vaguely worded “Cameras are in operation in this borough” sign with a speed camera symbol on one of the approach roads there are no other signs warning that the whole area is bristling with cameras.

    Can I appeal on thse grounds with any chance of success?

    Unfortunately I have left it a bit late as I have only just seen the notice so, if I lodge my appeal before the expiry of the cheap £60 fine, will any future fine still be £60?

    By the way, many thanks “MoneyBoxJunction” for running and maintaining this site!!

    Vaughan

    PS would be very grateful if you could reply before my Tuesday deadline!

  26. Rizwan says:

    Hi

    I received a PCN for entering a box junction today from Wandsworth. The date of the notice is 31/07/07 and the date of the contravention is 24/07/07 but I only received it today which is the 15/08/07 so I am already past the date where I can pay the discounted rate!!!

    They say they have video evidence taken from a real time camera operator. I would like to see this evidence. Do I tick the box ‘There was no contravention…’ and then write in the details box ‘I would like to see the evidence’? and just send that off? Is it allowed to enter the box if the cars ahead of you are actually moving forward but stop suddenly?

    Many thanks…Excellent work on this website by the way…I am sure loads of people are finding it helpful!

  27. H says:

    Hi there All

    Seems like a lot of us have been caught in these box junctions due to the driver infront stopping, I have the same problem. Money Box Junction would you mind giving us some advice and a few legal pointers??? HELPPPPPPPPPPPPP me if you can I’m feeling downnnnnnnnnnn and I do appreciate you being round…….

  28. susie says:

    Apologies if this is a blonde question but can you appeal to a box junction PCN on the grounds of ‘not being able to see’ if your exit way is clear?

    I am just about to appeal a PCN for the box junction at Battersea Rise/Northcote Road (Battersea, Wandsworth Council) which as far as I can see is almost impossible to use for turning left without being liable to a PCN. The corner of the junction is built on of course (this is London afterall!) and you can’t actually see round the corner to know if your exit is clear.

    Thanks Susie p.s. I wish I had found your site hours ago it would have saved me a lot of time and research!!

    • Julie says:

      Hi,

      I have just received a PCN for this same box junction. The traffic was as usual heavy for a Sunday, and the lights further up Battersea Rise change before the traffic can even clear on the crossroads of Northcote Road and St John’s Road so one cannot help being stuck in this box. If the traffic behind is waiting as well, how on earth can you get out of the box apart from sprouting wings and flying over the traffic in front.

      How are my chances to appeal. I need to sight of the photo as I don’t even remember entering the box as I am usually very cautious of this situation.

  29. E D Walters says:

    Hi Moneybox Junction just to update you on my progress re the P.C.N I received back in June 2007, to date I have heard nothing and with just under 30 days left I am hoping that Lambeth council have seen sense and dropped this charge, if I hear anything further I will post it on here.

  30. E D Walters says:

    Hi all latest update found in office Friday 8th letter from lambert asking for £150 as I had not paid my PCN and that i had not appealed or my appeal was refused, (no letter recieved saying my appeal was unsuccessful) rang them up to be told that this was a gliche in their system and that my appeal was logged but not dealt with yet, so just to warn you all if you have appealed and you get one of these letters ring them, let them know and hold tight do not be tempted to pay, they are trying it on.

  31. mark garner says:

    hi i have just received a pcn for stopping ina box junction at new kings road bagleys lane i feel this site is a money machine for h&f council as the phasing and position of traffic signals make it very difficult to judge traffic flow especially when a van or lorry is in front blocking you view of signals ahead it is easy for cars to be left with their tail end in box as vehicles in front are forced to stop when signal is green as pedestrians crossing refuse to pay attention to signals.i believe h&f know of this signal visability problem and fail to correct it as it would reduce their revenue.please could you advise me if i should make representions against this unfair choice of sites they chose to enforce

  32. sonia says:

    Hi Mark
    I have received a penalty notice for stopping in a junction box on liverpool road n1. You cannot see my registration number as in steve ronson’s case – is there any way you can help?

  33. Roger says:

    Hi Mark just found your site from google. I share your passion would you like a link from my site and vice versa?

  34. Roger says:

    Sorry that last message was to the owner of this site….

  35. Anuj says:

    Hello. I have just received two Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) from Waltham Forest for the same alleged offence. The difference is only in the pictures taken from different camera operators – the date and time on both of these are the same.

    I believe I do have very strong grounds for getting at least one of them cancelled (the second one in numerical order?), and even the first one as well given that it is clear from the picture that I was not blocking the road for people to turn into as there is a cone blocking off the adjacent road.

    Would be grateful for advice on how to proceed. Have tried calling the council today (on Saturday) and only get the automated line. Will try again on Monday. Shall keep you posted on my progress.

  36. Min Liang says:

    Hi, Jim

    I was caught by the camera at Ruislip Road and Mansell Road of Greenford in May and June respectively for stopping in the box junction. I appealed to the Ealing council but was rejected and asked to pay 100 pounds. They said that there was an operator who did recording specifically for people stopped at box junction and that they reinvestigated it. The record showed that I should pay the penalty. I was really upset and scared of driving through that point since then.

    I was very pleased when I read the article about the illegal box junction on Ealing Gazzete. It seems that there will be a hope for all the people who were unfairly given the PCN to claim the money back.

    I was wondering if you could write a letter on behalf of all the people experienced PCN and for them to sign up. and hand it to the organization incharge.
    Thank you very much indeed for help!

    Min Liang

  37. Matthew B says:

    Similar, problem as most on this site have just recieved a PCN 31 for battersea/northcote road.

    Can i contest this?
    I entered the junction when the light was green, I then got stuck and the light has gone red. The Con Code states ’31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited’ I saw another post stating that if it is cctv the Con Code needs to be 31j. Is this true? and is it worth my while to contest or am i going have to pay even more money…. £120 so far….

    thanking you

    Matt

  38. Mick says:

    My situation is exactly the same as Susan Woodward 16th March & Pip 18th April. I’ve been pictured at Battersea Bridge Rd/Westbridge Rd. I was turning left into Battersea Bridge Rd and the 1st pic shows my front wheels outside the yellow box junction and rear wheels in the zone. The 2nd pic is 26 sec later and shows I’ve not moved at all.

    Getting stranded in the zone is due to to massive congestion and erratic traffic behaviour (due to the congestion charge zone moving to just over Battersea Bridge). The through traffic was not being blocked and you’d reasonably expect that the traffic would move enough that you’re rear wheels will be out of the yellow box before the lights change to red.

    Is it worth contesting ?

  39. E D Walters says:

    update to my PCN Lambert have rejected my appeal on grounds that i entered a bx junction when my exit was not clear and although i also appealed on the grounds that the PCN was not legal they made no mention of this they have however offered me the half price deal if i pay it now , of course i am going to appeal it to the adjudicator and ask for a personal hearing, M B J ant thoughts?

  40. E D Walters says:

    \sorry re my spelling that last part should be Money Box J any thoughts?

  41. heather says:

    Hi, i have received a penalty charge notice for stopping in a junction box in Leytonstone High Rd. The first picture shows my number plate, but the 2nd (1second later) shows a different first letter! I went on the website and blew the picture up. It definitely looks like an F instead if a B. Also i have a blue bit on my number plate and that is not showing in the 2nd picture. What do i do? I am sure the pictures have been edited. The letter says that i can view the cctv footage, which i plan to do. I am sure the council is on the fiddle.

  42. peter says:

    Hi,
    I have received a PCN for entering a yellow box on east hill/ st anne’s hill in Wandsworth.
    I got trapped in the junction box after the car that suddenly stopped despite there was enough space in front of the car that stopped suddenly which is possible to see even on the photo provided by Transport for London on PCN.
    Thanks for your help.

  43. Chantelle says:

    Hi, I have recieved a penalty charge fo £120 for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited in Bowes Rd/Brownlow Rd. The notice contains 2 images, the first shows me in the box junction behind a number of cars that had stopped due to a van driver suddenly stopping and pulling across the traffic to try to do a u-turn. The flow of traffic was fine until this incident. The second image is taken 20 seconds later by a different camera so there is no indication of how long I was supposed to have stopped. Surely the van driver is a fault as their error meant that the traffic flow was suddenly brought to a standstill. Do I have grounds for an appeal? Thanks for your help

  44. Matt says:

    Hi,

    I have also received a penalty charge for £120 from Ealing council for stopping just short of the end of a box junction in South Road – Junction of St Josephs Drive in Southall. First time I have come across this completely ridiculous way of the goverment and local councils forcing you to part with yet more of your hard earned money! My situation was caused by a transit van stopping short of the car in front so I had no choice but to stop in the box for a few seconds. Ealing coucil have sent me a letter with 2 pictures a few seconds apart proving this. In the letter sent to me though it clearly shows the words that they ‘believe’ that a penalty charge is payable which would mean to me that perhaps it is not strictly law that I have to pay this charge and they are just trying it on as much as possible as more people will pay it without question than contest it?

    Anyone who knows Southall will know it is one of the worst places in London for traffic flow and judging traffic flow ahead of you let alone looking out for the ever increasing flow of signs/marking and regulations. Please advise if I have any case for an appeal also.

    Thanks for your time and help, and great site by the way!!

    Cheers,
    Matt

  45. Matt says:

    MY GOD!!!!!!!

  46. Matt says:

    I have just received another letter from Ealing showing a picture of the front of my car this time and a different time and date and picture of me stopping again in exactly the same junction box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Please help me someone or I am going to have to take out a bank loan to pay these people!!!!!!!!!

    Man am I pissed.

    Matt

  47. sean. says:

    hi
    i have received a PCN for stopping in the ruislip rd / mansell rd boxed junction… i have veiwed the video and stopped 2ft inside the box. i now believe the box to have been made smaller since and been made much smaller to comply with the law ?.i havent paid and not been sent anything saying the case had been found against me untill i receveid another pcn which says that it has increased by 50% to £150… i do believe the first amount was £40… strange 50% !!!!… have i any legs to stand on, and if so please tell me which one so i can kick back with the other

    thanks sean

  48. ian rundle says:

    Hi
    I hope someone might be able to help advise me (and possibly stacks of others). I have recd a PCN for an alleged contravention “in long lane, hillingdon, mtc”. I was turning right (as I do every day) at a notoriously busy junction that very often gets choked up by pedestrians crossing at the lights / a nearby zebra, buses turning, delivery lorries reversing down side alleys, etc, and so often catches out a huge number of people every day.
    The highway code law 174 states “……However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.”
    I feel that this very much applies in my case, but would also be interested in how else I might be able to appeal providing an even stronger case. e.g. notices, signage, yellow box layout, wording on PCN, etc.
    If I am unable to win the case, I feel that I shall never again be able to move at this junction when the lights turn green without fear of being clocked by the CCTV camera. Oh the joys of free flowing traffic !!!

  49. Thomas Wright says:

    Dear Mark,

    I have received a PCN on the 22nd of october which the letter is actually undated other than stating the date and time the vehicle was seen. which according to the letter is the 22/9/2007.

    do you feel this alone is reason enough to appeal and potentially be succesful.

    further to the above on visiting the waltham forest borough website, it shows more pictures of my vehicle actually being blocked in by a white van behind me who was also in box junction. These pictures have not been put on the PCN i received.

    i basically was forced to stop because upon proceeding into the box junction the traffic if front was also forced to stop and could not go anywhere else as the van behind had already moved to close.

    im not the best at this sort of thing, but hate the feeling that im being taking advantage of. If you could help me in anyway it would very much appreciated.

    kind regards.

  50. John Morris says:

    Hi Mark

    PCN re Bagleys Lane/Kings Road. Pictures show me turning right out of bagleys onto Kings. Impossible traffic at the time due to the cut through onto Kings road (Homswood terrace) being closed. My representation that I was turning right and therefore should not get a PCN was rejected on the basis that the exit was not clear when I entered and the ‘turn right’ exepmtion only applies if stopped by oncoming traffic. Are they right about this or would an appeal stand a chace of sucess?
    Thanks a lot. JM

  51. Howdill says:

    We have just received a PCN for my wife’s car which my daughter was driving through the Battersea Bridge Road/Westbridgen Rd junction. Having found this brilliant site it would seem this is a hot spot for fines. I note the significant appeal that was mounted in August, but wonder if there are still grounds to appeal on the format of the PCN, the incorrect junction box marking (which the picture seems to show lines intersecting at an oblique angle rather than 90degrees and the fact that traffic was moving when she entered the junction but came to a halt just before she exited.
    Like everyone else, this means of raising fines is little short of extortion and should be challenged – either that or it becomes yet another reason to simply pack up and leave the country! Very grateful for your advice.

  52. Frank Buckle says:

    Just had a PCN from Tfl for the box junction turning in off St Anne’s Cres onto East Hill Wandsworth. In one picture I’m sitting across the corner of the Box, as there’s not a “straight across” option, and in the second it’s zoomed in, but I must have moved since the first as my number plate is obstructed in the first and not in the second. I’m going to take it all the way, as I could have driven out but if I had the car ahead, which must have been moving slowly, would have thought I was trying to cut them up the inside.
    I think the box is there to stop cars coming down East Hill not blocking, but I’m turning onto the main road, and like Northcote Road, can’t see the exit.
    Like anyone else I get very cross when people enter yellow boxes and block the flow of traffic, but I’m turning onto the main road, it’s not a crossroads!
    This system is clearly flawed, and is going to catch out people who aren’t causing any problems, or who are likely to be caught out again even knowing the cameras there.
    Any advice welcome but as in most of these cases I suspect if I can be A***** to appeal and appeal again it might be cancelled.

  53. emmy says:

    I am hoping someone could please clarify the below statement for me as I am not too sure how it relates to PCN enforcements and the LLA traffic act.

    Simply USING THE ROUTE is not a contravention, DISOBEYING A SIGN is

  54. David Jones says:

    I have just received a PCN from TFL. Like many others I had simply stopped in the beginning of the box as traffic ahead came to a stop. (in fact the photo shows I could have crossed as the space the other side looks big enough. That’ll teach me!) The start of the box is before the end of the pavement for a pedestrian crossing & therefore not blocking anything. The ‘offence’ occurred at the jct of Peckham High St & Peckham bus station for which they’re demanding the princely sum of £120 rising to £180. They say they have the offence on video or DVD. Is this true? Like your other queries above I do not see how otherwise they can tell from the 2 photos that I’m actually stationary. I believe road markings are often wrong. Is this worth checking? Thanks for running your site. This daylight robbery has to be fought. David

  55. David Jones says:

    I logged onto Ticketbusters. Thinking I would get all the info I paid the £10 fee & enrolled. Unfortunately they don’t seem to cover box jct infringements. (Contravention code 31 wasn’t included in the list)

  56. Jack Tilbury says:

    I’ve just received a PCN for turning left against a “No Let Turn” sign from Rosebery Avenue into Tyson Avenue in Islington, from a CCTV camera.

    I honestly didn’t see the sign as it is poorly placed in the central reservation, not on the left hand pavement, and I’d like to appeal on these grounds.

    Does anyone know if there are national guidelines on the placement of signage that I could refer to?

    Cheers

  57. Z Patel says:

    Hi Moneybox,

    I have recievd a PCN for entering and stopping in the box junction at the same location as ED Walters & Sandra.

    Any help / guidance would be much appreciated.

  58. Murat says:

    Hi moneyboxjunction,

    I posted on parking tickets forum regarding my situation and would appreciate if you could guide me fighting back :)

  59. Anya Roberts says:

    Hi there,

    I received a pcn for entering and stopping in a box junction.
    In diagram 1044 it shows a box junction can not be longer than 30000…
    Can you tell me what unit this is ? Is it millimeters , that would make the maximum length 30 meters… Is that correct ?

    Regards,

    Anya

  60. Anya,

    That’s correct, the dimensions are in millimetres, so the maximum permitted size is 30 metres.

  61. Louise says:

    I just received a bill of £1060.14 from collection services used by Ealing for stopping in a box junction on 29.01.07 and 06.02.07. I never recieved any notices to this day but this bill. AA warrant of execution has been issued and they now have power to collect the money. on the letter my name is incorrect. I dont know how to start. I need help I know i should write letters but stating what?

    All help most welcome

  62. E D Walters says:

    Update o Box Junction near Streatham vale and Eardley road, Lambeth were at it agai Yesterday 30/11/07 thier van parked on the corner of Erdley road on the double yellow lines, I just had to stop and take photo’s I also noted that they did not display any warning signs in the area except for one just on the post where they were parked. is this legal or is this entrapment?????? The traffic lights are still out of step the ones by the next junction turn red and those on the Eardley/Streatham vale are still green and as there is only 90 or so yards between the two still catch people in the box, but agai do they not have too display warning signs when they are operating this sting.

  63. E D Walters says:

    To Z Patel 14/11/07 watch this space my appeal to the ajudicator is to be heard on the 13/12/07 so a ruling one way or the other will be made but you should appeal in the meantime as i do not believe this box is fair or legal

  64. CGE says:

    Hi, i recieved a notice for the box juntion at Battersea Rise/Northcote road, i emailed them to appeal and am awaiting a reply. My view was blocked by a white van in front, and as i was already in the junction, because the driver of the van was driving erratically, i drove around him (he was turning right) only to find the way ahead blocked and myself trapped at the edge of the junction! Now i couldn’t reverse all the way back and i now face a charge of £120. Is there any set charge as i see some of you only got charged £100? So unfair!!

    Why isn’t anyone in an important position, with the means to make a change, reading these posts?? What happened to the Public’s View?? Is it not important anymore!

  65. Harinder says:

    Hi, I also received PCN notice for entering junction box Streatham Vale ( Eardley Road) like E D Walters and Z Patel. Please keep updated with your progress as I am thinking of appealing against this notice. Many thanks in advance.

  66. E D Walters says:

    “VICTORY” “VICTORY”

    Today 13th December 2007 my case was to be heard by the appeal tribunal and guess what Lambeth did not present a case, at the eleventh hour they bottled out of trying to defend the indefensible they know that the Eardly/Streatham Vale junction box is as stated in the appeal allowed on the 23/11/07 for a supposed offence on the 17/03/07 a few days before mine, the adjudicator stated “I AM NOT SATISFIED THAT THE LAYOUT OF THE BOX JUNCTION AND THE ROAD MARKINGS AS SHOWN THEREON IS/ARE COMPLIANT” this direction can be read in full under case reference 2070380194 0n the appeals website http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk.

    So to all of you that have picked up tickets appealthe precident has been set you should win your cases the junction is badly set out and with the new light by the station being out of sight there is no way you can judge your exit.

  67. E D Walters says:

    PS to the originator of this site a hearty thank you for without this site I would have paid up and been fleeced as so many others before me

  68. Mario says:

    someone is getting very rich…………………
    I received a penalty charge notice from TFL ( 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited) the car I drive is a company car and the offence toke place on the 16/11/07 and only on the 26/11/07 a notice was issued.
    On the penalty charge only the vehicle reg was given and only BowesRd/ Brownlow Rd was given as the local of the offence. No pictures were sent to me.
    How can I difend my self???????????????

  69. Harinder says:

    CONGRATULATIONS!!! E D WALTERS You have given me hope. Can you please check the website and case no. once again as when I click on it, it takes some where else. I will have to appeal against this PCN ticket by 20th Dec.
    Many Thanks in advance for all your help.

  70. Robert Langton says:

    I received a money printing ticket today. I have stopped in a box junction on the A406, bowes road junction at 08:05am one morning during the rush hour traffic which is basically bumper to bumper stuff every morning. I have not upset anybody directly or assaulted someone or in fact committed a crime by causing damage to vehicles or property, I like many others on this site was simply driving to work…. for this I get screwed and shafted up the rear to the tune of £120…. how about a warning or an initial letter of you’ve made a mistake next time you’ll get stung. No, I have to pay, seems ironic as traffic cuts in from the right at this junction and if you do not cross the box you get beeped from behind,,, no more, I will be that infuriating guy in front of you leaving a huge space in front of me. We have all been sent these tickets because we own our homes and our vehicles are legitamite, meaning the councils know they can get ‘their’ cash…. they are not interested in joe up the road on the council estate as the council knows the dss will end up paying the fine. This system of fining the honest commuter is a scam, it is basically a licence to print money, my next car is going to be a bus. TFL are a bunch of C@*$s,

  71. Harinder says:

    E D Walters Please HELP.

    Thanks

  72. Gwyn Evans says:

    I have just received a notice, like Susan and Pip above, for purported contravention “31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited” at the corner of the same junction, Battersea Bridge Road and Westbridge Road for exactly the same reasons. I would be grateful for any feedback from either of these two people as to how they appealed it, and whether they were successful. Thanks, Gwyn.

  73. E D Walters says:

    Harinder

    have tried logging in from here also but get taken elsewhere also, don’t know what to suggest , you could just try dot gov dot uk and see if you ca access it from there as the address i have given is the o on the form, I have however typed in the address myself and got onto the site so try that, the sad thing is that i could not locate the case i cited it seems you have to go to the tribunal to get this so i apologise for this, anyway get your appeal in ad when you get the rejectio appeal to the parking adjudicators you wont be sorry DON’T WAIT DO IT NOW

  74. E D Walters says:

    Sorry folks this laptop i am using sometimes the N does not work

  75. Harinder says:

    Many Thanks for the reply and I have posted my representation today. Let’s wait and see.

  76. Neil says:

    Have just received a notice for contravention code 31 – entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited at the bowes road / brownlow road junction.
    Very angry about this, as the still photos on the PCN do not prove i was stationery and i appear to be only just inside the box. (maybe half the car but its not that clear).

    The first photo shows clearly that i am not actually obstructing any traffic and the second photo is four seconds later – which is just just a close up of my registration. Thats it , thats all the photo evidence they have provided. Therefore no indication of how long I allegedly stayed in the box junction.

    The traffic was bumper to bumper and merging from 3 lanes to 2 across the junction and I was making an extremely rare (and stressful) journey in London. I suspect I may have been moving with the traffic albeit very slowly.

    I have done a bit of research, mainly thanks to your site and other forums and was wondering if I should demand to see the video footage and also can i ask – do we know yet if this junction is compliant with all regulations. I have seen a satellite picture and the box markings seem to carry on further than 10% past the junction.
    Please advise. do I have a case???
    Thanks Neil

  77. Mrs Shirani Thevarajah says:

    when I received the penalty notice for entering box junction, I sent the following information on the form on 06/12/07

    “Thank you for your notice dated 30/11/07. I am astounded to receive the above notice and I wish to appeal against the charge and have made my representation in the attached form

    On 22/11/07, I was a passenger in the above mentioned car and my husband Mr. A. Thevarajah was driving. I am astounded to receive the penalty charge notice. If you observe the photo carefully , you will note that there was no failure to comply with an indication of sign. You will note from the photograph the traffic was moving. There is a car ahead of my car on the left side lane positioned at the end of the box junction , the other car positioned on the right side lane is in the middle of the box junction and my car which is on the left side lane has entered the box junction to move on. I have reasons to believe that my car was moving. If you have evidence to the contrary to my belief, I look forward to receiving the same. I work in the locality. .My husband and I are law abiding citizens and are very concerned of the penalty notice. We would be grateful if you would cancel the penalty charge.”

    on the 13/12/07, I sent to them by fax the following; “I write further to the representation I made on 6th December. I have now observed that the yellow box markings does not comply with the Regulations TSRGD 2002.

    Please treat this letter as my additional representation”

    I have yesterday received letter dated 24/12/07 posted on 3rd January on 4th January stating the following: “The above vehicle observed stationary within in the box junction/priory road on 22/11/07 Please note that being stationary within a box junction constitutes a contravention. Therefore, the issue of being partially in the box or for a short time or distance is irrelevant as this is a potential obstruction

    Please note you must not enter the box junction until your road is clear . you must not enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping. If there is a vehicle already ahead of you in the box junction, you must wait until that vehicle has moved out and there is a free space for your vehicle the other side of the box junction. Upon investigation , I can confirm that your vehicle moved unnecessarily into the box junction . our CCTV video evidence clearly shows your vehicle entering the box junction before the exit route was clear. ( this is not correct- the route was clear and it was clear to cross) . The exit route was very clear – no traffic)

    I think this is a standard wordings.

    They have completely ignored who the driver was and sent the reply to me – They did not issue the ticket to the correct person

    secondly, as I was a passenger I am aware what happened. Traffic signal is controlled by two signal posts on the same side with a distance of a few feet . .The box junction was clear to cross. From the photograph it is clear we are not obstructing anyone. The vehicle is positioned between two posts of the traffic lights located on the same We have to cross the second traffic post to enter the junction area. The box junction starts from the first traffic light post and continues passing the second traffic like posts to the middle of the road.

    Between these two posts there is no pedestrian crossing. one side is fully railed other the other side blocked with bollard. and high cemented block

    Either we have stopped when seeing the second traffic light post turning to red which is within yellow box area or just moving out .No evidence produced that we were not moving.

    Putting two traffic light posts within a short distance of a apace of a car to control the traffic flowing from one side and inserting yellow box marking with in the two posts and placing a camera is well designed to trick the law abiding people who would be trapped w between the 2 posts

    I am also concerned of they posting the letter dated 14/12/07 on 3rd January and 14 days would come up today

    I have taken photos and can send it to you e mail as an attachment . please let me know to whom to send it to

    I wish to submit the notice of appeal with proper grounds – they should first serve on the driver and then . their grounds are printed which is not the grounds that is applicable to us

    If at all the first one is suit ale which is the contravention alleged by the PCN did not occur.

    Mrs thevarajah

  78. E. Costa says:

    This is an appeal for anyone who has issues with Haringey traffic enforcement in Tottenham to get in touch with First Tottenham newspaper through our website. We want your stories and photos.

  79. A Malik says:

    Hi,

    I live in bradford and down for 2 days. I went to london for the first time last week and was using the tom tom I asked to avoid congestion charges i never realised i went through a congestion zone until I receive a £60 penalty charge on 21/01/08. but it was actually issued on the 18th.
    i was travelling from walthamstow to hammersmith.
    is there any chance of avoiding this charge?

    thank you

  80. Paul says:

    I have received a pcn from Islington showing my car apparently stationary while trying to exit a yellow box ie front half of car is already out of box while rear is still in the box. The two photos are taken 5 seconds apart. They have not supplied a photo of my car entering the box, so there is no evidence that the exit was blocked when my car entered.
    The pcn itself does not actually state the amount of penalty payable nor the reduced amount for paying within 14 days nor the amount of 50% extra payable after 28 days ie the amount is left blank as follows “The penalty charge of £ must be paid etc….”
    Does this make the pcn invalid?
    Also one corner of the yellow box in the photos clearly does not reach the kerb, it reaches up to the edge of the double yellow line which runs along the kerb.

    Please, do you think I should appeal? I do feel agrieved at receiving this because the fact is that I did not expect the car in front of me to stop and block my exit, but I realise this in itself is not a defence.

    Thanks for any opinion or advice you may be able to give me

  81. Dave-o says:

    Hi.
    I have a PCN from exactly the place pictured in the example PCN here (Drayton Park).
    As you can see in the opicture, 2 lanes merge into 1 in the middle of the box.
    Can anyone confirm whether this is actually legal?
    If anyone has successfully challenged a Drayton Park PCN, any advice would be really appreciated.

  82. UK_shoes says:

    Hi, hope someone can help!
    Got a PCN from Haringey Council, dated 19Feb 2008, with respect to “Entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited” in High Road N22 on 9Feb 2008
    I know High Road in Haringey is a hot spot, and wonder if it’s worth appealing.

    My car was stucked behind a car turning in from the right hand side, and blocked me right in the middle of the yellow box……..=(

    Is it worth appealing? can someone please help? Happy to scan you a copy of the notice if required.

    Thanks in advance

  83. K Yau says:

    Hello,

    like a few on the website, I have been issued a PCN re: Northcoate Rd/Battersea Rise. According to another website, the box must adhere the the following rules:

    “The yellow lines must go into the corner of the box, as shown in the picture below”

    “The box should go right up to the kerb”

    Are these regulations real?

    If so then the box junction is invalid.

    Thanks in Advance.

  84. Daren Gaule says:

    it seems i left my reply on part of the site that is not replied to unlike this section .i received a pcn for an infringment of the box junction at kings road / bagleys lane which has been paid by my company and then removed from my wages ,is it too late to make an appeal once the company has paid ?even if i would have appealled given the chance cheers for any advice

  85. Adrian says:

    Hi,

    I made an appeal against a PCN (first appeal) for stopping in a junction box where prohibited and they took almost 2 months to reply. Is there a time limit for the reply? I sent the appeal on the 21st of Dec and received the reply on the 26th Feb.

    I have had to pay a couple of fines in the past and admit they were my fault – I think – but this is ridiculous. The photograph shows that I was stationary for 21 seconds.

    Is there anything I can do? It happened at the Christchurch/Priory Road junction box. SW19.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    Adrian

  86. john batman says:

    I am surprised that nobody as mentioned the box junction in east ham, junction of barking road and wellington road west bound. there is a set of pedestrian traffic lights that go red without anybody operating them and anybody who gets third in the Que when the lights change is caught on camera and don’t dare too give way to anybody wishing to join the traffic from wellington road as i did 60 Quid. ( This must be New-hams biggest moneybox )

  87. Duncan Sabiiti says:

    Hi,
    I received a PCn for stopping in a box junction. They however did not provide me with the photo showing my position before i entered the box . They only sent me two photos one showing the car in the box supposedly moving and another one which is a closeup showing nothing at all. How do i get started to appeal as i believe i was not in any infrigement of traffic rules. It seems the box is faded so it is not clear whether i am in the wrong so was wondering if i could use this to appeal. HELP Please

    Thanks

    Duncan

  88. andy says:

    Great site, i have just received a pcn from LBWF for an offence in which i stopped in a box junction, this was caused by traffic turning right at the lights without indicating, when the traffic lights changed i moved off with the other cars only to find the car in the front of the que had decided to turn right without indicating and i was stuck in a box before the lights.
    If i cannot appeal on these grounds then if the lines used to draw the box are not the correct thickness can i appeal on this basis ?
    Thanks for your anticipated help,
    Andy.

  89. Richard says:

    Hi. Just received an “Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited” TfL PCN with this wording:

    A penalty charge of £ 120.00 is payable before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of this notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%. If you fail to pay the penalty charge notice or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, a charge certificate may be issued to you increasing the penalty charge payable to £180 (less any monies already received).

    They have included the words “beginning with the date of service of this notice” – as this does not comply with Section 4 (8) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 – that will be the grounds for the appeal.

    We shall see…

    Richard

  90. Mick says:

    You can win !

    I put a post here on Oct 2nd last year, I had been snapped in a box junction and I wasn’t happy with the way TFL was playing judge and jury via CCTV. After putting up my post Jim got in contact and gave me great advice on how to appeal the PCN. Its worth going through the motions, I was meant to go to the appeals tribunal last week but at the last minute TFL withdrew their case.

    For all of you that feel harshly done by I recommend you stick it to them and appeal.

    I can’t thank Jim enough for the assistance he gave me, his commend dedication to the cause!

  91. Jon says:

    I received a PCN from Lambeth Council for a contravention code 31 at the Eardley Road/Streatham Vale T Junction in July 2007, I appealled against it on the basis that the exit road (Streatham Vale) was clear when I entered the box, I had to stop in the box because the car in front of me pulled up for no apparent reason, my witness who was standing on the pavement opposite Eardley Road intervened and gestured to the driver to move forward, which he did allowing me to exit the box.

    Notice of Rejection of Representation was received in December 2007 stating the following:-

    The PCN was issued because the vehicle was observed entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. I have read and noted the context of your letter however as stated in the Highway Code you must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.

    You may only enter the box when you want to turn right however, this is not possible at the location. Therefore, you must not enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping. Regrettably, this PCN cannot be withdrawn as it has been issued in accordance with current road traffic legislation.

    I attended the hearing of my appeal to PATAS on Friday 7th March 2008, the appeal was refused as follows:-

    The issue is whether the appellant entered and stopped in a box junction in Streatham Vale when prohibited from so doing.

    The appellant has submitted that he was forced to stop in the box junction as a result of the vehicle immediately in front of him stopping abruptly. I have also taken into account the video footage from which I have observed that the appellant entered the box junction when his exit from the junction was not clear. Essentially the appellant’s vehicle entered the box junction when there was insufficient space between the front of his vehicle and the rear of the vehicle in front, to permit the appellant’s vehicle to have passed through the box junction without stopping. It may be that the vehicle in front stopped rather abruptly, though this cannot be ascertained from the video evidence, but it does not detract from the point that the appellant’s vehicle entered the box junction when his exit was not clear.

    I accordingly refuse the appeal.

    Can you clarify paragragh 2 of Lambeth’s Noice of Rejection?

    I feel the PATAS Adjudicator is confusing the issue of the exit road or lane being clear before entering the box and a vehicle being able to exit it once in it.

    There is no video footage of Streatham Vale beyond the box, before I entered it,to prove or disprove this point. Yet there was no referral to my witness’s written statement confirming that Streatham Vale was in fact clear of traffic.

    My witness is clearly visible on my copy of Lambeth’s video evidence but did not appear on the footage shown to me by the Adjudicator.

    Should I contest the Adjudicator’s decision and apply for a case review the reason being ‘The interests of justice require a review’ or am I wasting my time?

  92. Jon,

    I have attempted to reply by e-mail, but your address us not accepted by MSN. Please post it again.

    I have obtained a copy of your case from PATAS.

    MBJ.

  93. Jon says:

    Hi MJB

    In my haste I may have entered email address incorrectly, thanks for the speedy reply have had the demand for payment in the post today

  94. SKT1977 says:

    Hi,
    I am in need of some advise. I have received a Yellow Box PCN from Ealing Council for St. Joseph Drive / South Road junction. I was driving on the South Road towards The Broadway and the St. Joseph Drive meets the junction from the left for my case. There are 2 pictures seemingly taken at an interval of 5 secs with just my front wheels in the box. There were no cars ahead of mine and I am still on the entry side of the box. Not sure, if I stayed stationery in the junction for longer. I am planning to call up and arrange for a video viewing but it is a tremendous waste of time, I reckon. For sure, the position of the vehicle proves that there was no possibility of a blockage because of my car. Although I understand from the posts that the T-box junction have to be half the road and the St. Joseph’s junction is in violaition of this, but my case falls in the legitimate half and not sure if that clause can be easily enforced. Further I understand from the posts that the Ealing council recognises a problem with the box and itself plans to make the box a bit smaller leaving some 4mtr extra space for cars to queue up, which if implemented would push my car out of the box.

    Any suggestions how to go about it ? I have scanned copies of the 2 pictures they have sent.

    SKT

  95. Lorraine says:

    Hello,

    I have also received a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction from Lambeth Council as mentioned by Sandra above. My PCN states the location of Streatham Vale (junction with Eardley Road). I actully think the location is Greyhound Lane, the traffic light hidden round the corner when its on red means it prevents you from clearing the box. They have also taken 3 photos of my car none of the photos clearly shows my number plate. Any grounds for appeal?

  96. LANCRY says:

    Hi
    I was unexpectedly and suddenly obstrcuted at this junction at Eardley Road and Streatham vale (a well known place for the council generating revenue from) by the cars in front of me. I was forced to remain in the box whilst trying to turn right for at least 10 seconds until the lights went red again. Not sure why the traffic stopped so unexpectedly? possibly a bad driver causing an emergency stop. The next traffic lights were far too near these and it’s clear that this is why the council tries to generate as much revenue as it can from this junction. The path leading to the box junction had very restricted view of it especialy with the amount of cars that were in front of me at the time. Please tell me if an how I can appeal. Cheers

  97. Paul says:

    Hi,
    I have just received a PCN notice for the alleged traffic convention of Entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited in South Road/St. Joseph’s Drive, Southall on the 15/03/2008.

    It states that I ’stopped in a box junction (on the yellow crosses) when prohibited’.
    The accompanying photo shows my car stopped half way into the box and clearly behind a silver car which has just left the box for 6 seconds.
    £60 for 6 seconds, this must be daylight robbery!!!

    The actual circumstances were that I was 4/5 cars back from red traffic lights when they changed green. The cars ahead of me proceeded across the box with me following the car in front into the box as the exit was clear for the driver in front.
    I was about to leave the box on the other side when the cars ahead of me suddenly came to a halt and I was stuck on the edge of the box for 6 seconds (according to the notice) until the lights turned from green to red.

    .Do I have a chance of contesting this as the exit to the box was apparently clear when the queue of cars I was in proceeded into it?

    Anyway advice will be greatly appreciated!
    Please let me know as soon as possible, Ive got until the 3 April.

    Thanks
    Paul

  98. Dave says:

    Forgive me if I’m deliberatell vague, but who knows who reads this :)

    I have just been sent a PCN by a London council for the alleged offence of “Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”. It doesn’t mention “entering a box junvtion when the exit was not clear”, which is what I thought the law actually is about.

    I have so far asked for actual evidence that when I entered the box junction the exit was not clear, since the two photos on the PCN do not show me entering the box.

    There is one bit of information which is required under s4 (8) of London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003, which is not on the PCN. What are my options? Do I:

    (i) pay the reduced £60 fine, saying this is not an admission of guilt and that I will be taking the matter up with PATAS. Then after 28 days from the date of the alleged offence point out the omission of the required information from the PCN and ask for my money back;

    (ii) tell them now of the omission of the required information from the PCN , and risk them issuing a correct PCN with 28 days;

    (iii) do nothing and hope PATAS agree that the PCN is invalid, but risk paying the much higher charge as I will be outside the 28 days?

    Dave

  99. Andrew Lambourne says:

    Hi,

    I didn’t get a reply to my previous post: can you confirm whether you’re yet aware if PATAS supports the case that the yellow box junction at St Joseph’s in Southall is illegal ? Please advise asap…

    Thanks

    Andrew

  100. Jamie says:

    Hi

    Im a victim of being caught in a box junction in heavy trafic ….but i heard somewhere that london transport have to issue the PCN within 28 days of the contravention

    The date of the contavention was on the 7/3/08
    The date of notice was on 8/4/08

    cheers

    jamie

  101. Rizwan says:

    Hi

    I recently received a penalty charge notice for entering or stopping in a box in south road/st. joseph’s drive, south hall.

    The cars ahead of me proceeded across the box with me following the car in front into the box as the exit was clear for the driver in front.
    I was about to leave the box on the other side when the cars ahead of me suddenly came to a halt and I was stuck on the edge of the box for 6 seconds (according to the notice) until the lights turned from green to red and i had to stay there until the traffic lights showed green.

    .Do I have a chance of contesting this as the exit to the box was apparently clear when the queue of cars I was in proceeded into it?

    Anyway advice will be greatly appreciated!
    Please let me know as soon as possible, Ive got until the 28 April

  102. tom says:

    With the introduction of the new Traffic Management Act 2004 this month, a heck of a lot of PCNs that are being issued are invalid. People should check anything like a hawk at the moment.

  103. Lyndon says:

    Hi Mjb, Thank you for a website like this it gives us a life’s Purpose.

    I have recieved a PCN today and have been seen at The (Drayton Park) box junction. I will be contesting it because was another car made an illegal maneuver to pass me at the junction.
    My question is the same as Dave-o dated February 20th 2008. Has anybody successfully challenged (Drayton Park) PCN ???

    Thanks
    Take Charge
    Lyndon

  104. kal says:

    Hi

    I have just been issued a PCN from EALING for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited in south road/Cambridge road southall, can anyone help me please. I entered the box following another car because the exit was clear for both cars but the vehicle in front decided to stop and about a meter of my car remained in the box.
    Can anyone help me please?

  105. Makk says:

    I have recieved a PCN for ’31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited’ Date of notice 30/04/2008 for an offence on the 25/04/2008 this was in BowesRd / Brownlow Rd the two pictures that is on the notice shows me at 07:24:30 in the boxed junction and a second picture 15 seconds later at 07:24:45 zoomed in beyond the boxed junction.
    Since this is a three laned road before the junction merging into two (I was in the right hand lane, which can go straight on or turn right) with the traffic from the centre lane not merging to the left like they are supposed to in this situation and the road in the left lane being clear for at least 6 car lengths surely this means the way ahead is clear.

    Is it easy to request the video evidence to view so you can defend yourself?
    The two pictures provided are no way good enough as it shows me already in the junction in the first picture and out of it in the second. My understanding was it offence to enter if YOU believe the round is not clear ahead BEFORE you enter.

    What is deemed the road ahead not clear?
    In the first photo it clearly shows the left lane clear

    What constitutes stopping in the box legal terms (do the wheel stop moving for set amount of time)?
    I’m not sure.

    Is the flow of traffic not taken into account (what if I thought I should turn right at the junction then changed my mind a decided to continue forward)? I can’t believe that these PCN’s are allowed to be taken out of context and that they can send you such insufficient evidence to justify it.

    Any help with my queries/rant would be appreciated

    Thanks,

    regards,

    Makk

  106. Dave says:

    First an update on my posting dated April 8th 2008, which may also be relevant to Makk above.

    I wrote to Haringey council requesting further evidence that an offence had been committed. Also pointing out that i considered the original PCN defective. I have today received a letter from Haringey stating :

    “The video evidence that we hold does not clearly show this contravention. In the circumstances therefore the PCN has been cancelled”.

    Makk asks above “What constitutes stopping in the box legal terms”. I’m not sure, but as he states the actual legal offence is roughly along the lines of “entering the box when you don’t expect the exit to be clear”, there isn’t as far as I am aware an offence of stopping in a box, though it may come under some general heading of causing an obstruction.

    So Makk,

    1) ask to see the video evidence
    2) check the PCN is valid, in y case they had the mail merge wrongly set up, and didn’t correctly state how much would be payable if the charge were not paid within 28 days.

  107. Chris Ball says:

    I have received a PCN from Hammersmith and Fulham for stopping in a box junction. if I appeal and it fails will I then have to pay £120 fine instead of £60. Also, there is only 1 photograph of my car on the PCN so how do they know my car had actually stopped rather than just moving slowly in the queue of traffic?

    regards
    Chris

  108. Desiree says:

    I recently received a PCN like many others at the box junction at South Road/St. Joseph’s Rd. I stopped at the entrance as the exit was not clear and then when the white van in front of me moved off on the other side of the box, I started to cross. However the van suddenly stopped as the pedestrian lights turned red and I was trapped. I have been doing research on the net and found your website very helpful. I followed up on the Ealing council report that was mentioned by someone and also found the following on the Council website:

    15.2 Schemes requiring authority
    15.2.1 South Road/St Joseph’s Drive junction
    This location is currently problematic. A yellow box was installed in order to ease the exit of cars from St Joseph’s Drive but this does not assist traffic in the main road and, because of the high number of violations by drivers, has become the source of many complaints. It is proposed to tighten the radii of the kerbs on each side of the junction Joseph’s Drive and South Road, so reducing the width of entry. The yellow box would then be reduced and allow, at 14m, at least 4m extra queuing space between the box and the pelican crossing. It also improves pedestrian safety by reducing the crossing distance. The cost of these carriageway and kerb works is estimated at £9 000″

    Do you know if this work has been done and are they trying to pay for this work with PCNs?!!

    The same report states that if the pedestrian crossing were moved to the south side of this junction then the need for the yellow box would be eliminated as cars could emerge from St. Josephs Rd when the pedestrian crossing was in use. This would be a the cost of one less parking space on South Rd.!

    I also found this from the minutes of a southall area committee meeting in Sept. 2007:

    The Chairman stated that the ‘Yellow Box Junction on South Road at the junction with St. Josephs Road’ is badly designed and drivers are becoming trapped in the yellow box. The Panel noted that a total of 2339 Penalty Charge Notices were issued at this location in June 2007. It was agreed that the design of the ‘Yellow Box Junction on South Road at the junction with St. Josephs Road’, which is trapping in motorists, is examined with ward councillors involved in the review process, that an update is reported back to the next meeting and included as a standing item in the Southall Issues Report until further notice. SI/CT

    A January 2008 meeting of the same committee stated the the junction should be reviewed and amended.

    I have asked to see video footage of my alleged contravention but any other help you can give would be much appreciated.

    Thank you for your website!

    Desiree

  109. Richard says:

    Be aware that the highway code allows you to stop in a box junction IF the exit is not blocked, ie clear. PEople defending this often don’t realise this and it should be defended more vigorously. If I can find the referernce I’ll post it. Or can someone else?

  110. June Whiting says:

    I have just received a PCN for stopping at a yellow box in colliers wood (near burger king). I stopped because the traffic lights changed. Has anyone else got caught here and is it a ‘legal box’ ?

  111. Ravinder Gill says:

    Out of all the money boxes in the UK, I have received two PCNs from the one on the St Jospeph/South (Southall/Ealing) road one.

    I successfully appealed the first one, but the second has been rejected.

    I have also managed to miss the 28 day (by a week) time limit to appeal to the PATAS service – should I still send in the appeal anyway, or is it too late now?

    This junction is just designed to catch out law abiding citizens and nothing more… my rear wheels were about a foot inside the box, because the other side only has about 1 and 3/4 length of car space before a set of pelican crossings.

    Any help in my situation would be massively appreciated (forms/appeals etc..)

  112. sangeeta says:

    I received a PCN from Ealing Council for stopping in a yellow box on the junction of South Road & Cambridge road in Southall. From the pictures they have sent to me, I am unable to see whether I actually stopped in the box and have requested to see the video footage.

    I attach here the satellite picture of the box junction. From the picture, it looks like one side of the box goes quite a way past the junction.

    Can you please let me know if this box is in agreement with the approved markings required for a box junction.

    Thanking you in advance.
    Sangeeta

    I only have a couple of days left before the charge goes up, so I truly appreciate a response as soon as possible, please.

  113. sangeeta says:

    Sorry, forgot to add the satellite picture.

    Link:

    Thanks
    Sangeeta

  114. Sangeeta says:

    this is the Cambridge Rd/South Rd google map link, its in Houslow (I am hoping it will appear in the website link or below). appreciate any views from anybody that has been enforced against on this junction.

    *http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=51.510194,-0.376175&s

  115. Abrar says:

    Hi Sangeetha

    I have received a PCN for the same box junction. Planning to appeal. Did you appeal? What was the outcome. Please keep informed.

    Thanks.

  116. Andrew Lambourne says:

    I can confirm that an appeal re a PCN issued for South Road / St Joseph’s Drive Southall (simply based on the two previous cases where PATAS ruled against Ealing Council because the yellow box is illegally marked) results in the Council withdrawing the PCN. Many thanks to this website for the assistance rendered.

    Media interest is rising – see the “Media frenzy” post on 29 May and also see Daily Mail article 30 May 08 “Highway robbery is costing motorists millions” in which they argue that if the councils continue to issue PCNs when they know the yellow box is illegal (which Ealing appears to be doing) then this is tantamount to fraud: “unjust enrichment”. It seems to me that there is a moral case that the council should repay *all* fines levied at the illegal junction – perhaps someone should initiate a class action ?

  117. Brendan says:

    Hi,
    I got a PCN today from TFL (PCN 31entering and stopping in a box junction). I feel that this is a bit unfair because as I was following the cars in front, the lights 300 yards ahead went red, therefore making the traffic stop again. At no point did I block another vehicle from passing me because of the angle of the road at Archway Road/Shepherds Hill.
    On what grounds can I contest? The photographs do show me been in the box junction for 60secs. As stated I never blocked another vehicle.

    Brendan

    • Gaby says:

      I know this was a long time ago, but did you manage to appeal successfully? I have just been issued with a PCN for the same area and same situation.

      Thanks.

  118. DKB says:

    Hi, My father recieved a PCN in the post last week. The PCN relates to the money box junction on the South Road/St Josephs Drive. We had a death in the family so decided to pay the ticket as we didnt want to be put in a predicament of forgetting to pay for it.

    Is there any advice or anything we can do to get our money back.

    Many thanks

  119. Julian says:

    Andrew,
    Would it be possilble to send upload copys of documents for your appeal for the PCN in south road, Southall
    Many thanks

  120. I have received a fine for stopping in the yellow box at the crossroads of Battersea Rise and Northcote Road and would be grateful if you could give me any help on appealing this. Like others I could not see around the corner to see if the exit was clear, when the lights changed and I moved forward the raffic was free flowing and I would have been able to exit the yellow box had the vehicle in front of me not stopped abruptly because of pedestrians running across the road.

    Great site by the way.

    Many thanks

    Best regards

  121. Justin Rigby says:

    Hi, just received a ‘nice’l letter from Transport of London stating that I have broken the Law in that I have ‘entered and stopped in a box junction when prohibited’, the shame of it! The camera is situated in ‘Peckham High Street / Peckham Bus station…how nice!
    The is a nice little pic of my company car which is in the box junction crawling upto the car in front of mine. Question is, how long does my car have to be in the box for before the camera does it’s bit? As you can clearly see, I am quite a distance from the car in front of me craling up to it to get out of the box junction.
    Looking carefully at the picture, the green light is still illuminated on the traffic light so I can still move!!
    Is this Mr Livingstone and his nice people doing us with more funds to pay out?

    Please can you give your advice as to how to proceed with this daft letter/request?

    All the very best to you………………………Justin Rigby

  122. Simon Chisholm says:

    Hi there, may I first say great site! Yes really require your help, I have received a PCN from TFL, contravention code: 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. I live in Ipswich and was on a trip to London. Having lived in London for 5years i am used to the usual traffic chaos, however I really didn’t see this one coming! The alleged contravention offence took place at the Lewisham Way/Parkfield Rd junction. I am not familar with this area of London, so I can’t really see a picture in my head of it, but know this (I did not intentionally break the law) I have been sent 2 pics, 1 picture shows me sitting on the edge of the yellow box, my whole car in the yellow area, the 2nd picture shows aclose up of my number plate, which appears to look like a closer image of the 1st pic. The time difference between each pic is 17secs. I am bumper to bumper with the car in front, and there is one car bumper to bumper behind me, also in the y/box area. I am blocking no cars from passing, I don’t know this junction and the pic is very small, I assume it is a cross roads & not a T-Junc, either way there are no cars battling to get around me. I cannot remember the feeling of being uncomfortable on any of the journey i made through london that day. I am cetain that this was a very tricky junction to negoiate, and that I made a judgement to move forward, as traffic was moving nicely, when suddenly the traffic stopped ahead in the distance and caused a backlog, a few seconds later and the junction would have been clear. I do not want to pay this fine as I believe it to be a scam. Please could you help, whats the inital step I should do next? I have not sent anything back yet. Letter received today 12/6/08. I have read bits of your site, is this junction legal? whats the next step? This site is very much appreciated. I feel like I am a victim of a huge political scam. I look forward to your earliest reply. Simon Chisholm.

  123. Shaun Frampton says:

    Hi Great site. Someone from pepipoo site recommended this for research for a PCN i have received from Hammersmith & Fulham at New Kings Road / Bagleys Lane Junction.

    I am going to request a video as the picture on the PCN is completely useless to see if a i did commit an offense.

    Any advice or standard letters to write would be most helpful.
    Regards
    Shaun

  124. Krishna says:

    Hello,

    I received a PCN for “Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibitted in The Broadway/Herbert Road, Southall (3) on 31/05/2008 at 18:19.” Date of Notice: 16/06/2008.

    I have recently moved to London, and am not aware of the “Yellow box junction Survellance”. Having recieved the PCN, and researching on this, I googled to your website.

    That day, the trafic ahead was clear and moving along as I approached the ‘Money box’. Between me entering the box and crossing the other end of the box, the driver joining the broadway from Herbert Road decided he has enough time to squeeze in, squeezed past the yellow box where the snail paced traffic was coming to a halt. I slowed/paused to avoid a collision. But then as the car ahead came to halt there was enough space for me to move bumper to bumper to possibly clear the Yellow box. Not 100% sure If I cleared. In both the pictures (15 seconds apart) on the PCN, I can see the left end of my car quite close to the right end of the car ahead. If I were sationary at the same place as in first picure, the second picture should have the yellow line in it. No yellow line can be seen on the second picture (close up). Both the pictures appear to be taken by the same camera by zooming in.

    In the first picture on the PCN, the car behind mine also moved in the yellow box as with normal traffic flow. The dirver of that car is probably aware of the ‘Money box issue’ and was smart enough to turn and enter Herbert Road avoiding stopping on the yellow box.

    I am pissed off seeing the PCN and am feeling vulnerable.

    Please advise how I should go about it.

    Thanks,

    Krishna

  125. Sarah Humphreys says:

    Hi

    I have received a penalty charge notice for contravention code 31 entering and stopping in a box junciont when prohibited. the fine is £120. this is the first I have heard of such fines so feel v. annoyed. Is it right that they can make such large fines for such an offense. The photo shows that just my rear two wheels are in the box.

    Also, I cannot remember the exact circumstances, but I am a cautious driver and my recollection is that I was slow moving but not stopped. They have sent me a static photo so I cannot see if I was moving or stopped to see if their evidence is right. can I ask for more information? I don’t think my brake lights are on which is one sign that I was moving.

    I would not have entered without a reasonable expection that I could make it through in time before the lights changed, as noted above only my rear two wheels are in the box.

    thanks for your help

    Sarah

  126. Hello

    I was photographed by the Lewisham Way/Parkfield Road camera on 7th April. I sent in representations and they were ignored: I had to chase TfL for a response, and they sent me a “Notice of Rejection” which was clearly a form letter, as it did not refer to my claim that the junction was illegal under TSRGD 2003. They also sent me someone else’s Notice of Rejection by mistake in the same envelope, and hers was practically the same as mine!

    I would be glad of some help with my appeal. I am in the process of modifying your appeal documents for High Street, junction with Avenue Road, Southall to match this junction. In exchange, I will make the resulting appeal document publicly available along with the others.

    Many thanks in advance for your help: I look forward to your e-mail as I only have a little over a week to respond.

    Best regards,
    J.

  127. With regard to my post above, I have a concern that the T-junction at Lewisham Way/Parkfield Road is a) on a one-way system and b) has a bus lane. Do either of these considerations weaken (or strengthen!) my appeal case?

    Many thanks!
    J.

  128. james says:

    Im trying to find out if the christchurch / priory road box junction complies with the regulations?
    Can anyone help at all? I have taken a picture of the google map of this, and can send it over.

  129. Mark says:

    I have just received today a PCN for the High Street/Avenue Road box junction. I intend to appeal it following advice from here. is this box still illegal? Also one reason i was stopped in the box is because some pratt pulled out in front of me forcing me to stop hard. leaving me one inch behind him in the box.

    Box seems to be incorrectly drawn, is this still the case? i am using these two points as my appeal.

    Mark

  130. andrea ceccanti says:

    I have received a PCN for parking on a double yellow line. however i have noticed that the contravention code 02 was used.
    Parked, loading or uloading i a restricted st. where…
    i belive the code 01 should have been used:
    Parked in a restriced street during prescribed hours (double yellow line) – this is exactly what the council states in their parking contravention codes.
    Can this be a ground for appeal?
    thanks

  131. Dawn says:

    My other half has 2 box junction pcn’s from Ealing Council. 1st South Road / Cambridge Road. 2nd (2 minutes later) The Broadway / Herbert Road. Have got notice of rejection today for South Road / Cambridge Road and am now expecting the second to follow shortly.
    Will use your appeal letter for Cambridge Road. Any ideas for Herbert Road? Does it comply. Any help appreciated.

  132. goss says:

    Hi, I received a pcn from Ealing council for being in the yellow box on South Road/St Josep’s Drive on 19 June ’08. They have sent 2 pictures THREE seconds apart and my car is already 3/4′s out of the yellow box. The only reason I stopped is because the big white transit van as shown in the picture also stopped infront of me. The lights must have gone red so there is nowhere else left to go. The pics show no vehicle turning out of St Josep’s Drive in the same dircetion as me, and you can see that if any on coming vehicles were trying to turn right into St Josep’s Drive there is no way i would be blocking anyone because i am bearly still in the box. I emailed Ealing Council and requested to see video footage of this alleged contravention. They then sent me a form to fill out and send requseting a time and day of viewing, but have stated that “if an appointment is granted, it would be for viewing only purposes. The Council is not prepared to discuss the penalty charge noticeat the appointment.”

    I have heard that yellow boxes at t junctions should only cover half the road (the half where the side road meets the main road) and this one goes right across the road which is apparently not enforceable because it’s painted wrong. Is this enough of a reason to have the pcn cancelled even though I am on the half where it should be painted. And is it true that the corners of the yellow box should be touching the kerb.

    Please can you tell me everything I can use against them as i have been told that althouugh I will not be able to discuss the matter with the person who shows me the video, I can however get a ticket and wait in the queue and speak to someone at the counter as thses Daylight Robbers are in the same building.

    Sorry for the long winded message. Please help. I do not want to be robbed of my hard earned cash just to fill there pay packets with bonuses which they treat themselves to.

  133. I have received a PCN from”Transport for London” today (18th July).

    Thay charge that on Friday 11th July I contravened code 31 by “Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”.

    They provide 3 photos on their site – 1. 10:56:10 in the box 2. 10:56:15 also in the box 3. 10:56:19 out of the box, close up showing the number plate. None of the photos appear to show who is driving. THey only provide two of the photos with the PCN.

    They tell me if I pay up in 14 days the fine is £60, or £120 thereafter. I have 28 days to pay the latter amount or face a further increase to £180 and a county court summons.

    The vehicle is not mine, it is my partner’s, and they have written to her not me. I was the driver at the time of the incident however, and was alone in the vehicle.

    The incident occured at Archway/Shepherds Hill (London) at 10:56 hrs on 11/7/2008.

    Look forward to getting some help as I am on a very tight budget.

  134. Michael Cooke says:

    Hi Mark,

    I recall hearing about these issues on a radio program on Radio 4 and thinking how completely unjust these boxes were. Recently my wife recieived a PCN from Waltham Forest council for a an infringement that occured on Saturday 5th July at the intersection of Leytonstone High Road and Bush Road in Leytonstone. My wife had been waiting at the Bush Road intersection, when the traffic on the opposite side of the had begun to move; travelling into the GreenMan Roundabout. The lights at the Bush Road intersection turned green and the traffic in front of her began to move as the oppostie side of the box junction was clear. As both sets of lights were green, she progressed into the intersection but before clearing the junction box, the traffic came to a premature halt, stopped by the, now red lights at GreenMan Roundabout. Unable to proceed, her vehicle became blocked in the junction resulting in the infringement. My wife is a very safe and legal driver and would not have knowingly have disobeyed the law. Could you please offer some advise as to how to proceed as I would like to appeal this PCN.

    Kindest Regards

    Mike

  135. Nick says:

    Hi,
    I have received a PCN for being in the box by about 50 cm. My reg was only got further on down the road , the camara has not got my reg will in the box. In thye first PCN, the alledged offence was 5 seconds after another camera ahead of me took my reg. I have contested and been refused but now the offense time is still the same on the PCN, but thealledged offense on the cameras show an offence a minute before. What is the best line of defence. Sorry about being vague, but the Councils must read your forum.

    Thanks

    Nick

  136. Sarah says:

    Hi my dad has received a PCN for stopping in the box junction at Gt Eastern Rd/Curtain Street. The traffic was flowing when he entered but as he got to the other side we noticed our lane was merging into the second lane as there were roadworks. Is there anyway we can appeal?

  137. Dupree says:

    What a shit site! The amount of questions for help being posted by everybody, pretty much on the same PCNs. And not one decent reply by ‘moneyboxjunction’ as to how to go about filing a standard appeal against Contravention Code 31s, save one reply at the top of the posts about a 28 day clause.

    Absolutely crap site, shitty blog!. They can’t be bothered to reply because they don’t have anything. Do not fall on false hopes with this unhelpful site, look elsewhere people!!

    • t doherty says:

      i agree, been reading it all, just thinking where are the replys for all these same questions?????? no answers here

  138. Clive says:

    Do you cover instances of people being booked at redundant dropped kerbs on a Sunday morning between 0800 and 10.00 – triple garages – not used access still possible.

    Ta.

  139. Martin says:

    Hi There,

    Have received a PCN for £60 today for High Road Leytonstone / Bush Road E11 . I fly to new york tomorrow and would be out of the 14 day period. Any advice would be nice?

    Mart.

  140. Phil says:

    On my two PCN photos in my fine letter, they have got the times the wrong way round and this shows falsification of evidence. Can I fine them £5000 like they can fine me?

  141. Idd says:

    Hi, (I already posted this in the Comments of the Ealing Box Junctions story before finding this help me section)

    Great site…I also hope someone might be able to advise me.

    I’ve read through most posts, and it seems my problem may be a bit more complicated.

    I am a law abiding citizen and do not cause problems neither do I park inconsiderately or drive dangerously.

    The Broadway/Herbert Rd Junction Southall (3)

    I moved house a year and a half ago April 2007, Car tax was due in September 2007 having realised at the time that I had not updated my Drivers License Details; I did not receive a reminder for renewal of car tax. I then phoned DVLA and updated my drivers license details and assumed (a bad thing to do) that this would also reflect on my car registration.

    This year as September approached and my car tax was due I again did not receive a reminder, again this was because the car registration was still at my old address, my drivers licence was at current address. Just a bad slip up by me, how could I have not updated the Car Reg address. I phoned DVLA up and asked them why I had not received the Renewal Notice, I was looking forward to renewing it online, I mentioned that I had updated my drivers licence details, I was then told that its because I had not updated my V5 Registration Doc, I asked if they would update my details over the phone and was told, that I had to send the original document in with the new details on it, this is the only way that the Registration can be updated to avoid fraud I was told. I then went to the post office and bought a new tax disc and sent my v5 doc off to update my log book address registration.

    The house I was previously in was rented, and I met the landlord about two weeks ago and he told me that the house had been empty since I had left and that there had been a lot of mail, mostly junk, come through for me.

    He offered me the keys to go and check the letters. This was on 25th Sept. It was then that I had found the PCN for an offence on 24/03/08 with PCN dated 03/04/08, There was also another letter Charge Certificate for the same offence, Charge Certificate Dated 14/05/08

    There was still another letter
    Order for recovery – Unpaid Penalty Charge
    Dated 15/07/08
    Asking me to pay within 21 days
    Or
    File a statutory declaration on the enclosed form
    and have it signed by a commissioner for oaths.

    The only grounds on which a declaration can be made are:
    277: You did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice (for a traffic contravention)

    278: You made representations about PCN to the council of the London Borough of Ealing, within 28 days of service of the notice and did not receive a rejection notice

    279: You appealed to the parking & traffic Adjudicator against the councils decision to reject your representations, within 28 days of the service of the rejection notice but have had no response to your appeal.

    You must only select one of the above three grounds

    If you need more time to file your statutory declaration write immediately to the Traffic Enforcement Centre

    If you do nothing, your possessions may be removed and sold to pay this charge.

    I just opened this last night (2nd October) and was looking into it today, The 21 days for the Order for Recovery (Bailiffs) letter finished on 4th August

    Can anyone help?

  142. Ivan Cullen says:

    Hi there,

    I’ve been looking at your site and really useful it is too – thank you. I wonder if you can help. On the 28th of May I received a PCN from TfL for ‘entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited’ on Camberwell New Rd / Bolton Crescent. Initially I sent back the form saying that no contravention had occured and asking for proof via CCTV footage. Two weeks ago TfL replied and said that we either had to pay for a copy or we are beholden to a time of their choosing. Neither of which seem fair. In reply and after reading through your web site we have returned the PATAS form stating that ‘the box junction is not as prescribed by the T S regulations 2002…’. Do we have a chance for a successful appeal and what do you think is our best option now? Also with council issued PCN’s if they do not accept you appeal you are still offered a 14 day discount period, TfL do not offer this. This seems grossly unfair as those who question the charge are therefore atomatically liable for a higher charge. Is this legal?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work.

    Ivan Cullen (exasperated)

  143. Fergus Davidson says:

    Hi Mark,

    I am another victim of the Islington Liverpool Road YBJ and on reading your views on these YBJ’s I’m going to send an appeal on the grounds of the junction being unlawful.
    I travel this route about 5 times a year as I live in Wales and only work in London rarely. I always travel this road just after the Con-Charge finishes and the traffic is light.

    This seems the perfect site for a camera on a YBJ as the traffic-lights are only about 16-20m from the YBJ and their cycle is very short. Also the side street leading onto it from the left is a narrow, quite street. It is obvious why they film this one as there must be a non-stop volley of cars getting hung up there. They’ve probably made a short traffic signal cycle for this very reason. I worked out that the council could potentially earn £25000/day from this junction alone!

    My Notice shows the back half of my car in the junction for 7 seconds but unless they have evidence otherwise there could have been a hundred reasons for this like someone walking out in front of the traffic ahead causing a sudden stop. Although I don’t lie, I also don’t drive recklessly and in fact I am a bit slow sometimes through town, but this YBJ is deliberately on camera because of it’s proximity to the traffic lights and I think that’s unjust.
    What is also unjust are the hundreds of YBJ’s I see every year with traffic blocking them in busy streets that are not on camera!
    I wander if they have raised the money for the Olympics yet.

    So has it been proven yet that this junction is unlawful? And am I wasting my time rejecting the Penalty notice.

    Any info would be great.

    Thanks for this site

    Fergus Davidson.

  144. Katherine Suchet says:

    Hi mark,

    I am outraged. On the 04th October I received a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited at Priory Road / Christchurch Street. I have already had my first appeal rebuked. There are pedestrians in front of my car, so I had to stop in the box junction as to not run them over! They have stated that there is video evidence that the obstruction was there when I entered the box junction – is it worth writing back to demand the footage? In which case, will lambeth council charge me for this? Plus, the pedestrians look like they have just stepped off the curb, and the box junction is large – how is this all possible?

    Any help would be more than appreciated. I am so angry and sick of wasting my money on being a safe driver.

    Best regards,
    Katherine S

  145. denis c says:

    Hi
    I have file a N244 after my stat dec was declined. I am due in court tomorrow. The timeline is as follows . Feb 2007 alledged incident in a bus lane . Within 14 days requested viewing. Took 3 months to give 2 day notice of the viewing 12pm on a Wednesday. Called to say this was unreasonable and can they give me more time.Heard nothing for 8 months ’til baliff on the door. Council claim they sent out order for recovery Dec 2007. Never received also no proof /copy it was sent from them.
    Is there a reasonable statute of limitation to which the council need to respond . Surely 3 months to wait for a viewing ;then 6-8 months for an order to recover is too long. Also if my N244 hearing is rejeected can I appeal the original PCN or will it be back to the baliffs Thanks

  146. daniel campbell says:

    hi mark.

    i recieved a pcn for entering and stopping at a yellow box juction at eardley rd SW16 whilst turning left onto greyhound lane. The pcn was issued on the 11/01/08 which we contested. We recieved lambeths letter on the 05/11/08 stating that we still have to pay the pcn. How long until the pcn expires ? I thought 10 months to reply would invalidate there pcn. A friend of mine had there pcn cancelled due to reasons associated with legislative matters. Any idea of what they could be ? there pcn was isued under the same circumstances and location as mine.

    thanks.

  147. Simon Taylor says:

    Hi,

    I have just recieved a PCN for entering a box on Turnpike Lane N8. I have been away from London for years, and have not driven there for some time, not that this is a defence, so I was unaware this was now in force. However, reading this site, am I right in thinking that if I challenge the PCN on the basis that it is not specific as to which bow on Turnpike Lane I entered (Google Earth appears to show there are 3) Also, it says I have 14/28 days ‘beginning with the date of this notice’ Which I am led to believe is not applicable, also the time on the PCN is 18.28 but the time on the pics is 18.29, I am sure I was in the box at 18.28 but is this again a technicality that may be worth exploring? Anyway, would love to know your opinion, please help a non-Londoner!

    Thanks

  148. Ian Savage says:

    I received a PCN dated 14th November for an alleged contravention on the 28th of September from Transport for London, showing photographs of me apparently stopped in a box junction in Archway Road / Shepherds Hill. I represented against it having done a quick bit of research and finding out that under the London Local Authorities Act 2003 they have 28 days from the date of the ‘contravention’ to issue a PCN; it took them about 45 days.

    I’ve had a letter today rejecting my representation, stating that I’m being charged under the London Local Authorities Act 1990-2003 and that there is no time limit for serving penalty charge notices. Is it worth me appealing and risking having to pay the full £120 fine or should I just pay up the £60 ‘discounted’ amount? I can’t find anything about the Act that I’m being charged under anywhere, and all that the rejection letter says is that ’14 days is what we would like to go by depending on the time it takes for DVLA to respond’.

    Is there a ‘definitive’ time limit for sending out PCNs for box junction contraventions?

  149. Lana Novak says:

    Hi,
    I was sent a PCN for stopping in a box junction in Drayton Park. I appealed and the council has rejected my appeal. I would like to send you my appeal letter along with the original PCN and the rejection and would appreciate your help in making the decision whether to go ahead with the PATAS appeal.
    As you’ll see once I send the pics, it is only my front wheels in the box as someone turned out of Horsell road in front of me, taking up the last bit of space in the lane ahead. They only provided me with this pic in the rejection letter and I think it might be good grounds on which to appeal to PATAS. I am also not blocking the junction at all.
    Please let me know if this is OK and what email address I can send the documents to.
    Thanks in advance.

  150. Miss Z says:

    I have received a charge certificate from TFL for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited, this was on gt Eastern Street/Curtain road.
    The charge certificate says that this contravention was detected using an enforcement camera, however no pictures were attched.

    Also, I did not receive any previous letters.

    I am now stuck with afine of 180, when only last week i was put out of a job.

    I need some help on how to react to this. PLEASE.

    THANKS

  151. Caz says:

    Hi there,

    I received a PCN for entering stopping on a yellow box junction on the A205 near Broadwalk, SE3. TfL are being shambolic and making it difficult for me to appeal (I keep asking to see the vid, they keep sending me unrelated letters back!).

    Do you know if anyone else has ever had a problem with this box, and whether the markings are legal? (They seem a bit short to me, don’t reach the corners of the kerb closely enough)
    Thanks

  152. Alan Doggett-Jones says:

    Like Ian Savage post dated November 29 2008 I received a PCN from TfL for an alleged offence 31 at the Archway/Shepherds Hill box junction on 19/11/2008 at 17:13. I represented against it on the grounds that I had not stopped because the two still shots initially provided showed that my car had moved forward some 10 feet during the 11 seconds between photos. Thus my average speed was 0.62 mph. TfL rejected my representation and claimed that their video evidence showed my car stationary for five(!) seconds, with only the back half of the in the box, then moving clear of the box by six seconds later. They sent a third still shot purportedly showing the other end of the five second stationary period, however my VRN is not legible in either of those two pictures. I am considering going to adjudication, and have asked for the video footage. I hope I don’t have to waste time attending a showing and that the relevant bit can be sent out on a disk, but I suspect they will come up with data protection bollocks reasons for not being able to do so. I noted an earlier post questioning the legality of the particular box. Is there a view on that?
    Excellent site – keep up the good work against the forces of darkness.

  153. mina rodricks says:

    My husband was sent a PCN for Entering and stopping stopping in a box junction. My husband replied saying that the contravention did not occur as I was driving the vehicle on that day.
    I therefore appealed against it as I was the driver on that particular day of the alleged contravention. The PCN did not state where the contravention occured but all it said that camera 504 have images of the vehicle being in the yellow box junction.On going to the Parking section at croydon council to view the footage, I was able to verify that it occured at the junction of london and Benshan lane.There was road works going on ahead at that time but there was no advance warning sign put up to notify motorists. I was at a set of traffic lights at Bensham Lane and when the lights turned green and i found my egress clear I started to move.The vehicles in front of me came to a abrupt halt due to the vehicles coming from the side road (left) hence the actions of the motorist ahead forced me into this yellow box.
    My husband wrote to Croydon council saying that the contravention did not occur as he was not the driver at that time. He furthermore said that I was driving on that day and I appealed against the decision on the following grounds:
    1. As the location of the contravention was not specified, (as there are many sets of road markings purporting to be a yellow box on London Rd croydon, it cannot be enforced as croydon Council is required by section 4 (5) (b) of the London Authority act 2003 to accurately specify in the PNC as to where it is located

    2. The line marking out the junctionwere faded hence did not conf orm to official guidleines COP CPTE paragraph ( 7)

    3. The Contravention code on the PNC (COP CPTE section 2.25 should state 31j (Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited) but the pNC did not state the alphabet ‘j’ .
    Moreover this box junction is sandwiched between 2 set of traffic which deviates from official guidelines. I e mailed the Authority asking if they had an approval to have this box junction but I have received no response till date.

  154. mina rodricks says:

    I shall appreciate an immediate response as the Hearing is on the 13th jan 2009..
    Thanks in anticipation
    mina rodricks

  155. KJ says:

    After driving for 25 years and more than 400,000 miles all over the world with no significant problems and living for 15 years in Southall and crossed over the The Broadway/Herbert Road yellow box markings at least a 1000 times I have now been fined with 2 PCN fines on the 26/12/2008 boxing day and the 03/01/2009. The numbers tell me that there are issued more than 1317 PCN fines from 26/12/2008. And someone tell me that the Ealing Council is deciding that 1317 car drivers all of a sudden are incapable of driving on The Broadway/Herbert Road crossing ? This to me comes over as robbery of the common man for the sake of filling up their coffers. That in such a time as this, where most people are struggling to get buy because of the credit crunch that is effecting all of us. This 1317 PCN fines result in 1317 x £120 = £158,040 or when paid in time 1317 x £60 = £79,020. This is outrageous and I am going to write some letters to Rt Hon Gordon Brown, Mayor Boris Johnson, and Rt Hon Geoff Hoon and the Councillors of the Bourough of Ealing about the appalling vexating behaviour of Ealing Council. I am not taking it ! If anyone can guide me with this, I will be grateful, I am starting from today 12 January 2009. I await for any good advice and will apply this for the common sake of citizens of London. Thank you.

  156. James T says:

    Hi,
    I have recieved a PCN for entering a box junction in Turnpike Lane. I am in the right hand lane but I only stopped to give way at the last minute to a bus which forcibly crossed over into my lane as the left lane was blocked, by another bus! The image shows the bus crossing into my lane which otherwise would have been clear. Does this sound like grounds for appeal against the charge?
    Thank you, any advice would be great,

    James

  157. sara Sullivan says:

    Our van has been caught in a junction box also at New Kings rd J/w Bagleys. Can I fight this ?? I think you might know the grounds to fight this on .I really would appreciate any help given.

  158. Manik says:

    Hi,

    I hope someone can help. I’ve just received a reminder letter today from Newham Council stating that i have not paid a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction (letter dated 04/02/09).

    The problem is, i DIDN’T receive the original PCN so wasn’t even aware that i contravened or needed to pay anything.

    The letter states that the offense had occurred on 20/12/08 at the Barking Road junction with Wellington Road and was caught by camera operator/Parking attendant 1126.

    The problem is that as its a reminder letter the charge is now £120(!) and i don’t even have a copy of the original PCN to verify whether this is true or not. I vaguely recall being in the area at the time.

    Is there anything i can do to challenge this? If so, on what grounds?
    Can i still request a video evidence of this offense? Not clear whether they caught me on CCTV or not to have video evidence as the letters states ‘ camera operato/parking attendant’. Could just be a photo.

    The letter states that i have now 14 days to pay the £120 or make formal representation otherwise i increases to £180 and opportunity to make formal representations will end. I’ve never decided to challenge before and would just pay but i think us motorists have been taken for a ride to long and am keen to challenge if i have any chance of winning.

    Any help/advice would be most appreciated.

    Regards,

    Manik

  159. Kathy says:

    I have received a PCN from Hammersmith & Fulham for the alleged contravention of ‘Entering and stopping in box junction when prohibited’ at Talgarth Road/Butterwick on the 30/01/2009.

    The image shows a close-up shot of my number plate and part of the rear window, but nothing of the car’s position or whether I was actually at that junction.

    How should I proceed?

    I would be most grateful for your advice.

    Kathy

  160. Simon says:

    I got a pcn on the Liverpool Road yellow box. I’ve read on here that some people have tried to challenge their PCNs for this junction on the grounds that the yellow box isn’t painted up to the kerb. Can anyone let me know if an appeal has been won using this argument please?

  161. Alan Doggett-Jones says:

    TfL simply ignored my written request and a reminder letter to see the video evidence of my alleged offence at the Archway/Shepherds Hill box junction in Highgate.
    See my above post of 14 December 2008.
    Instead, the mindless machine has rolled on and I’m now having to write to the Northampton Traffic Enforcement Centre to ask them to hold back the bailiffs and help me get a response from TfL and its band of highwaymen.
    Has anybody else had this experience?

    • shah says:

      Hi Alan,

      Just wondering what happened with your appeal in the end? I am in a similar situation with a PCN issued on archway road.

      Thanks

      • Gaby says:

        Hi Shah,

        Did you appeal in the end? I have just received a PCN for the same area and and wondering if I have a chance of succeeding.

        Thanks.

  162. Sue says:

    Hi just left a message (on the council page under Haringey) about a box junction in Haringey, which is probably not legal. So was wondering whether to make a test case, only problem is I’ve paid the reduced fine (CAB adviced it was worth paying and appealing, but having researched further, feel that will be construed as admitting liability), but am writing to head of parking services, asking for cheque not to be cashed as wish to appeal further. Advice please!

  163. Graham Johnson says:

    PCN for box junction at drayton park. They sent two images 16 seconds apart and it is my opinion they are the same image right down to the shadows off my van in the identical positions in both photographs. Road other side of the box clear as is clearly shown in image 1. Have appealed and will be taking legal advice but based in Scotland so English lawyer needed.
    This is more than a mistake on their part something is not right here and i will take it all the way and if someone wants to get on board,great. Have delivered in London for years and know not to go into the boxes never mind sit for 16 seconds when the road is clear ahead.

  164. Dimitris Kaltsas says:

    The waltham forest council send me a pcn for a box junction without the overleaf page for representations.
    This box junction is at High road Leytonstone E11/ Bush road E11. I am not certain if it is a signpost to alert that a cctv camera is in use. Any advice please?

  165. Lionel says:

    I am about to fight a PCN for entering a BJ outside the Peckham bus station, though I was not blocking any traffic, I am about to complete the PATAS form but would appreciate any help with it, and an opinion asto wether it is actually worth fighting, more info here:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=40839

    Many thanks, Lionel

  166. JarJarBlinks says:

    All, I have not altered my driving style or frequency in any way recently and yet have been subjected to 4 (yes, 4!) seperate PCNs over about a 3 month period.

    Reluctant as I was to pay any of these, I gleaned as much information as I could from websites such as this one, ticketfighter.co.uk etc.

    I am happy to report that in 2 of the 4 cases, the relevant council (one which is particularly zealous in their unjust pursuit of the cash of naive road users, as reported widely here) either “waived” on first appeal or pulled out immediately prior to the PATAS hearing “due to staffing issues”.

    In the third case TFL failed to record the make / model my motorcyle and incorrectly recorded the colour! (PCN for a parking ‘offence’ enforced via camera). Needless to say I pointed out this minor issue to them in my response – I have heard nothing since. What a joke.

    In the fourth case, the council has written to me to request a further 14 days in order to “complete their investigations”. I am confident that this one will go no further either.

    It is nothing short of scandalous that bodies that are solely created to serve you, me & the ordinary law-abiding public (and whose wages we pay)have been permitted to virtually steal from that public with often completely unlawful fines.

    It is the fault of the government for allowing them to self-finance (= run riot) in this manner and ultimately our fault as a public to put up with this nonsense.

    Gone are the days when public bodies could be expected to behave responsibly and in many ways,I pity the thousands (millions?) of road-users who fail to realise that and that out of fear or misplaced respect for authority pay these unjust stealth taxes without question.

  167. Sue says:

    Definitely appeal. I was sent a CCTV PCN. The council rejected my initial appeal, but I paid the £60 reduced fine, sent with a letter not accepting that I was at fault, and completed a form to parking appeals. I stated that one or 2 CCTV stills did not prove I had stopped in the JB,the car could be moving slowly given the very narrow time frame (literally seconds). Also the council wrongly stated that this particular JB had been approved by Dept of Transport (I had questioned its legality as the corners did not go right up to the kerbs as they should according to traffic regulations). But they were wrong as they cited a diffferent JB, not the one related to the PCN. I sent photos of the JB with the appeal as proof of questuinable validity. Before the appeal was heard, the council withdrew its case without giving any evidence. Parkings appeal says any money I paid the council now has to be returned. The whole process took a few months though.

  168. Victim of Evil Councils on Money Prowl says:

    I prepared months for the hearing about my 2 cases with all kinds of information regarding this. The council made sure that they had all the videos ready and when my appeal was turned down they also made sure that Refused was printed as fat as a printer can print on their letters of the refusal letter. As if they were saying Ha-ha, got ya anyways. The particular Yellow box that I perpetrated even though I had been over it hundreds of times in the past and never was fined is to my opinion now a net that works together with the traffic-lights that are fuzzy remote controlled from a distance so you will fall in that net whether you like it or not.

    In both occasions I have been a little with my front of the car in the Yellow box not obstructing the traffic and the second one I was sitting 5 seconds, yes 5 seconds !!!!! in the box because the car in front of me did not move up quickly enough even though all traffic in front of the car was gone.

    There is no room for mistakes. You shall pay ! Through your nose. So we can put up more camera’s to catch you. Where I live there are tons of camera’s. The lie of “this is for your safety” is not true. This is for getting ur money. Every 50-100 yards a camera and double that, is not about safety. You can’t tell us, that if you have Parking Attendants, Police and Neighbourhood controllers running everywhere that it is about safety. It is about stifling and controlling you as much we can. Looking at every little move you do. From the 100 camera’s that are given out there 40 are in Southall. As if Southall is such an unsafe place. Lies. Lies. Lies. Lies. Lies. I am living in Southall for 15 years. Been everywhere. On the big streets, in the small roads, under the tunnels, bridges, shops, restaurants, worship places, you name it. Walking, Driving, on the bus, in the taxi. Never had any problems regarding safety. So it is bull. We hardly read ANYTHING about Southall as a criminal place in the Ealing Leader. However there is the hypocritical attitude of the authorities who DO themselves set up traps for you so you can be prosecuted and caught ! So they can have nice buildings, computers, flashing lights on their desks and a paper-stream from here to Antarctica, security to kick you out the door, hypocritical faces behind closed doors and falsehood. Hiding behind a system that is collapsing, frantically trying to keep it up for the sake of self-preservation. A consciousness with steel plates in front of their head, pretending they never make a mistake themselves. Smite you where they can hurt you the most, except the things they promise they say they do, are not done.

    Thanks for the rant I could do here.

    Greetings to all who read this. Hope you will tell them who they really are if you experienced the same. Every democracy ends up in dictatorship. I really would like to know how they can sleep at night ? Anyone ?

  169. Lionel says:

    thank you Sue i shall follow your lead.

  170. Tom says:

    Hi there – I have appealed a PCN and am appealing to the PATAS lot…
    I believe the box junction itself is illegal as it crosses a cycle lane – like the case in Waltham Forest.
    I need quotes/references/previous cases!
    Help!
    Can you assist?
    Thanks a million in advance,
    Tom

  171. Penn says:

    Hi

    I have received 2 PCN’s however i have just bought a new car and the dealership have put the wring name on the reg doc’s therefore the PCN’s are addressed to the wrong name, will I have to pay these?

  172. Darren Hawley says:

    Hello I have received a PCN from Camden Council July 09 stating that I entered a box junction in Shaftesbury Ave when prohibited. The notice shows a still pic of me in the box junction but the video evidence is unavalible from their web site. I need to see it to see if I was actually stopped and for how long.
    Please can you offer assistance as I want to appeal.
    Thanks.

  173. Tom says:

    REFERRING TO MY POST TWO POSTS ABOVE:

    PATAS had issued me with a court summons and have now unequivocally dropped the case. Suckers!
    Good news for anyone caught in the box junction in Drayton Park.

  174. Lynne says:

    Hello, I have just rec’d a PCN from Transport for London stating I entered the box junction at Lewisham Way/Parkfield Road. I can see on the 2 photos they have incl I must have been moving, as I am in diff postions on the grid. I have phoned them to ask if I appealed and lost, would I be obliged to pay the full £120 which he said no, they would let me pay the 50% reduced fee. I never intentionally stop in a yellow box junction and have been doing this run several times lately. Do you know of any legal technicality I can quote, or should I ask for the video to show I am actually at a complete stop at some point? Thanks so much.

  175. Vaughan says:

    hi

    i do have a PCN and have spent all evening reading up on useful sites like yours. Thank you. I just wondered if you were able to take a look at the Box junction at Brixton Road/Gresham Road, London SW9 and tell me whether you believe I could contest the PCN on the grounds that it is not drawn in accordance with the required regulations. I really cant afford to pay for this notice and i am careful about entering box junctions, but the timing of the traffic movement has caught me out…(i am right at the end of the YBJ but not in anyones/things way-although the full length of my audi is in the YBJ)!

    • Vaughan says:

      just so others may be aware of the situation too.
      My husband has been to view the video and -as i thought- i entered the junction box as the traffic was flowing freely. It was only the result of the bus (which had cleared the box when i entered) stopping infront of the YBJ and, therefore, also a car behind the bus which forced me to stop in the box. When my husband spoke to the TFL officer (they called him as he is the registered keeper) they advised him that they had viewed the tape and in their view the Penalty charge was justified. I doubted this only because i know how careful i try to be when at junctions-because it is a pain when others do it to me! Just letting you know that an impartial opinion/or wholistic view is not one that the officers at first point of call seem to take and so i am sending off an appeal for them to consider the cancellation of the PCN.
      I just wonder how many other people will just be paying up -because, like me, they would have initially been too intimidated by the official nature of it all and the added time factor for all of this.

    • Vaughan says:

      PCN has been cancelled. The letter from TFL restated that my vehicle was seen entering the box junction when my exit was not clear and that i was stopped for ? seconds…which is why they issued the PCN.
      THey reiterated that you can not enter a box junction unless your exit is clear and you can cross over it completely without stopping……and it goes on.

      London would come to a real slow down and there would be riots if we adhered to the letter of this….it is totally crazy to think that you could hang back as much as it suggests you do every time you came to a box junction……. i usually only do this if it is clear that there is a hold up/obstruction which is causing slow moving traffic and therefore likely to mean me stopping in the box….. i think i am right in saying that most people act similarly and dont deliberately drive into the space when its not clear..(?)

      not practical and i wonder how many officers have been down to box junctions and worked out the traffic light phasings/timings to ensure that cars arent getting caught just on that basis alone.

      the letter ends with it saying that it is a “gesture of goodwill” on the basis of this being the first time.
      This is a good sight as without it i wouldnt have been brave enough to take steps that i intended to follow through. i will donate towards it.

      it would be good to have a separate area where some of the “winning” arguments were posted to make it easier to trawl through the responses here.

      Many thanks. Its money i didnt have to waste!

  176. lee barnes says:

    i have received a PNC notice dated 9 november and have called and emailed them requesting to see the video evidence when i asked them to suspend the notice till i have seen it they said they cant do that so i quoted the traffic management act 2004 they then said they will get back to me i have read lots of things that i can say to appeal against it i have seen the two photo’s of the offence and one of them my 2 front wheels were not in the box also does there have to be camera warning signs to warn me of a camera enforcment watching this junction in croydon road purley way plus croydon road is quite large do they have to put exactly where the offence took place as croydon road in purley way is quite vague please can you get back to me as soon a poss thankyou

  177. lee barnes says:

    hello again i have been to the location from where they say the offence took place and this junction is a 4 way junction the turning left has a devider in the middle and the box does go past this devider but ends halfway from the devider to the kerb so it is not touching the kerb at all is this an illegal box?? please please can you get back to me thankyou

  178. Pritesh Khambatta says:

    Hi,
    I have already sucessfully challenged Eailing council on 3 illegal yellow box junctions.

    My dad got caught in box junction in Eailing.
    The box junction is the Greenford road/Otter road.
    I believe the box junction is illegal as the corners of the box do not meet the kerb.
    I have already appealed to Eailing Council, and now am appealing to PATAS.
    The PATAS hearing is this Friday, and surprisingly I have received Eailing councils evidence for the PATAS hearing.
    Watch this space!

    • Shobhit Narain says:

      Hi Pritesh,
      Even I got PCNs on the same Otter Road/Greenford road box. I too feel that the box is illegal. I went to see the video evidence today. I am also planning to appeal against my PCNs. Is there any update on your hearing with PATAS. Would appreciate a response.
      Rgds,
      Shobhit

  179. Victor says:

    Hi,
    I’ve recd a box junction ticket from Eailing Council for Greenford Rd / Otter Road.
    Is it reasonable grounds for defence that traffic was flowing freely and the car in front as an act of “having a laugh” or road rage, deliberately left a considerable gap between it and the car in front leaving me in the box when there was no need. You can see the gap in the photo.

    Also I have a re-collection that any box junction in a London Brough has to be approved by Tfl. If the box is not on the Tfl list then the ticket is invalid?

    Also Pritesh or anybody else, were they successful on the point that the box does not meet the corners or did Eailing Council / PATS reject this argument?

    Any help appreciated.

    Rgds

    Victor

  180. Shobhit Narain says:

    Hi Victor & Pritesh,
    Just wanted to find out if you guys have had any success in your cases. I plan to send a representation this week, so just wanted to make sure if I can take it to the appeals stage with PATAS.
    Hope to hear from you soon.
    Rgds,
    Shobhit

  181. lee barnes says:

    hiya,
    just an update to my case against my PCN from transport for london i sent them 2 emails with pictures of the box junction in purley (croydon road junction) as i thought this box was an illegal box as 2 of the four corners was no where near the kerb and also there were no camera warning signs within 50 meters of the enforcment camera and quoted them 2 or 3 acts to which they have to obide by this has clearly worked as they have canceled my PCN which they say is a ”GESTURE OF GOODWILL” though i will never know if this box was an illegal box oh well atleast i now dont have to pay thanks for all your help with this

    • Shobhit Narain says:

      Hi Lee,
      Could you please advise the acts you quoted.
      Though I have taken the photos and the guidlines form the OPSI website.
      Thanks
      Shobhit

  182. lee barnes says:

    hiya shobhit i will paste my email i sent here:

    further to my recent call and email i would also bring to your attention that the yellow box on purley way/croydon road junction is not within the traffic signs regulations guidance (The box must extend into all four corners of a road junction and go right up to the kerb) i am aware there can be an exception if the secretary of state for transport has authorised a variation, If this is the case please can you send or email me a copy of this special permission.

    I would also like to bring to your attention that there was no enforcement camera sign’s within 50 metre’s of the enforcement camera, the data protection act clearly states signage is ”compulsory”

    please can you get back to me on these matters and the previous matters i have raised thank you

    Lee Michael Barnes

    (attached are photo’s of the yellow box junction)

    i hope this helps i also asked for the PCN to be suspended to see the video evidence they have to suspend it under the traffic management act 2004

    again i hope this helps you

    lee

  183. Shobhit Narain says:

    Hi Lee,
    Thanks for the advise. I have already seen my video footage. Would send a similar mail to Ealing council alongwith the photographs and the yellowbox guidelines.
    Will keep posted

  184. Mark Bower says:

    Anyone wanting to fight a PCN should visit the above site (Penaltychargenotice.co.uk); it really does explain in plain English how to fight the system.

    I just received a PCN for yellow box infingement on the north circular but I’m sure I’ll get off as, from checking on Google maps, it appears that the box is illegal (20% of the box length is cut out at kerb junction).

    The website will explain all including what information is legally required on a PCN.

    Don’t forget these traffic nazis are not that clever and make plenty of mistakes; they rely on you to pay up even though they could be the ones committing an offence. Let me know if this was of any use to any of you. Happy driving!

    • Mike says:

      Please see above Brixton Road / Gresham Road box juntion.
      I too have been caught at this box juntion BUT cant find out if
      1) Is it legal?
      2) Has TFL got approval from DFT to operate this box juntion

      I sent in an appeal against this box juntion as you can see its TWO lanes at the traffic lights which are set behind a pedestrian crossing and then the box juntion, immediately aftre the box junction the lefthand lane filters into the right due to buslane.

      If your in the right hand lane and traffic is moving you get caught later by the left hand lane traffic filtering into the right to avoid the buslane.
      I requested a copy of the managment order saying the box juntion was approved. This has been ignored in my letter from TFL.

      The letter sent by TFL also stated my car was stationary for 15secs. This equated to 5sec 1st time 10secs 2nd time seconds as i cleared the box juntion. However through out the traffic lights were green and traffic only stopped when a pedestrain ran infront of one the cars infront of me. The stills clearly show space for 1 1/2 cars should the pedestian waited.
      TFL have stated i can have the CCTV for £10? do i pay for this or are they obliged to provide it?
      TFL have also implied in their letter that if i dont pay within 14days the fine will double and that should i appeal i will be liable for costs above this charge should the matter be proceeded with.

      How do i go about finding out if there is an approval notice from DFT showing this juntioin to be legal and enforceable. As by DFT’s own definitions

      a) A yellow box must be at the junction of at least two roads. Thus for example a yellow box at a bus garage exit and a road would not be valid.

      b) The yellow lines must go into at least two of the corners of the box, as shown in the diagrams below.

      c) The box should go right up to the kerb. See the bottom of this page for a case won on this point.

      d) There should be only one yellow box at a junction.

      e) A box which deviates from the standards requires approval from the Department for Transport (DfT). You may request evidence of this approval when appealing your ticket. If the authority doesn’t have DfT approval (which is likely) then the box is invalid and cannot be enforced.

      Is the above any use to me or should i just pay the fine and be done with it?

  185. Vaughan says:

    hi

    i dont think the box is illegal (it is on the approved list) allthough i wonder if the lack of signposting might be. It should be noted that when the camera took my photo i was at the very front of the box junction and not blocking the road to the left. I do wonder if the phasing of the lights here actually give the driver sufficient time to clear the box, realistically (in a real world if the traffic is moving freely through the box you take a “reasoned” judgement about entering the box and being able to clear it) but here is my posting from my experience….# I hope it might help.
    …………….
    just so others may be aware of the situation too.
    My husband has been to view the video and -as i thought- i entered the junction box as the traffic was flowing freely. It was only the result of the bus (which had cleared the box when i entered) stopping infront of the YBJ and, therefore, also a car behind the bus which forced me to stop in the box. When my husband spoke to the TFL officer (they called him as he is the registered keeper) they advised him that they had viewed the tape and in their view the Penalty charge was justified. I doubted this only because i know how careful i try to be when at junctions-because it is a pain when others do it to me! Just letting you know that an impartial opinion/or wholistic view is not one that the officers at first point of call seem to take and so i am sending off an appeal for them to consider the cancellation of the PCN.
    I just wonder how many other people will just be paying up -because, like me, they would have initially been too intimidated by the official nature of it all and the added time factor for all of this.
    # Vaughan Says:
    December 11, 2009 at 12:07 am | Reply

    PCN has been cancelled. The letter from TFL restated that my vehicle was seen entering the box junction when my exit was not clear and that i was stopped for ? seconds…which is why they issued the PCN.
    THey reiterated that you can not enter a box junction unless your exit is clear and you can cross over it completely without stopping……and it goes on.

    London would come to a real slow down and there would be riots if we adhered to the letter of this….it is totally crazy to think that you could hang back as much as it suggests you do every time you came to a box junction……. i usually only do this if it is clear that there is a hold up/obstruction which is causing slow moving traffic and therefore likely to mean me stopping in the box….. i think i am right in saying that most people act similarly and dont deliberately drive into the space when its not clear..(?)

    not practical and i wonder how many officers have been down to box junctions and worked out the traffic light phasings/timings to ensure that cars arent getting caught just on that basis alone.

    the letter ends with it saying that it is a “gesture of goodwill” on the basis of this being the first time.
    This is a good sight as without it i wouldnt have been brave enough to take steps that i intended to follow through. i will donate towards it.

    it would be good to have a separate area where some of the “winning” arguments were posted to make it easier to trawl through the responses here.

    Many thanks. Its money i didnt have to waste!

  186. Jeff Wickham says:

    I recently received a PCN for the box junction at Greenford Road/Otter Road in Ealing.

    Looking at the photo on the PCN I would say the markings are illegal as they don’t go right up to the kerb. Also there are numerous other previous road markings beneath the box markings.

    Has anybody else received a PCN here? Ealing Council proudly boasts:
    “Greenford Road/Otter Road, Greenford
    There were 902 PCNs issued here in September, mainly related to the yellow half-box located at the junction of Greenford Road and Otter Road, Greenford. The yellow half-box junction was recently installed at this location as part of the “Good for Greenford” initiative.”

    • Victor says:

      Hi Jeff,

      I recd a ticket for this same location.
      I made representation to Eailing Council who
      have not accepted my grounds for appeal.
      I will now complete the PATAS appeal form to send in.

      What does confuse me is that the council set very strict guidelines by which they have to have a reply but I did not hear from Eailing Council for 7 weeks.
      Does that mean they are now out of timescales.

      Shobhit was going to take his ticket to PATAS, perhaps he could give an update on if he won or was unsuccessful.

      • Shobhit says:

        Hi,
        I received letter today from the council, in response to the letter based on the advise by Lee on Dec. 3. The letter states that the box is legal and doesn’t need any approval from the sec. of transport and I have to pay-up in 14days. I was actually going through this site to find out if there is anyupdate on any other similar case. I still think its an intimidation from the council to get money out of me.Will keep you posted of any new development/s.

  187. Victim of Evil Councils on Money Prowl Says says:

    For all who are online here and challenging tickets. Don’t give up. Take in mind that everyone makes a mistake and you really don’t want to be deliberately sitting in a yellow box just for the heck of it. Many a times it just happens because of busy traffic situations.

    Do these councils and who work there realize that it is extremely busy in London. Anyone ending up in a yellow box tries desperately and frantically to get out of it, because they know that it is wrong. Unless it is a worn off rainy dark at night yellow box, you hardly can see. It just happens. Camera men and other fellowmen who are out there to watch you, NEVER make mistakes in life do they ?

    Just a note, the inventor of the yellow speed box camera’s along the road got caught in it too one day.

    Awww how sad.

    WE ARE and CANNOT BE HUMAN ANYMORE CAN WE ? We just are mindless robots and drones and do as we are told and put up with traffic jams, problems, endless signs, camera’s, yellow boxes, yellow lines, double yellow lines, red lines, zigzag lines, disabled, you name it and all the misinformation and foolishness. NOT SO ! Just for your information, the Traffic Rules for the Car-driver is a 250 page and over book !!!! DOES ANYONE HAVE IT ALL IN THEIR HEAD, WORD FOR WORD ? I didn’t think so !

    Just keep your foot down and stand up about things that are ridiculous and have no room for human mistakes and things that are frivolous and pathetic.

    That is the sole reason why this country is not functioning. Too much rules, too much regulations, too much law, too much enforcements, too much interference and meddling in other countries that is not their own backyard. Why ? Because it all comes out of fear and the controlling factor of subduing you to nothing. Only the western countries are supposed to progress, right ? The rest of the world, Ummm, 3 billion have to live from 30 dollars a month !

    Our freedom and expressions is slowly taken away, not for the sake of safety and democrazy, but for the sake of control (dictatorship), too much rules, regulation and money.

    When you visit them in their ivory towers and offices, you can see where the money goes. State of the art buildings, security, mirrored glass, endless desks, number counters, camera’s. All in a controlled area to frustrate you to have a more relaxed life. I am telling you, you can’t. Your mind has to be working overtime to get all the details and information correct. How can you ? Nobody can. Anyone ? Simply, we are not geared for that. Never will be. We are not designed for that.

    Things need to be kept simple and accessible for any level of thinking that is in the “common” man.

    Life is already complicated. They keep adding to it to make it more difficult.

    So my little piece has been said again. I hope some good will come out of it. For as far as I can see, no good has come out of it so far then frustration when I visit here now and again.

    Good luck and keep fighting for a good cause.

  188. Indrah Carter says:

    I received a PCN for entering a yellow box on Greenford/Otter Road; this allegedly took place on 12/ 10/09. I only became aware of this ‘offence’ on 17/12/09 when my employer sent me a copy of the PCN as I have a lease car. I wrote to Ealing Council immediately requesting to view the video footage but my employer paid the £60 to avoid increased charges and deducted this from my salary.
    I wrote to the Ealing Council again on 17.2.10 about not having received a date for the video viewing.
    I was anxious as my diary and electronic records show that I was visting a client in another area at the time the contravention is said to have taken place. I also contacted my client to ask her to check her health record as I have to record the exact time of my visit to her.
    I have eventually been sent a CD, instead of the appointment, which I got to view today. It showed that a third of the back of my car had remained in the yellow box for about 22 seconds. It was also clear that there was enough room for the vehicle in front of me and mine to move in the space which would have cleared the yellow box. However, the vehicle in front decided to enter the space and leave a gap in front so that I could only partially clear the box. What is amazing is that the video footage states that the contravention took place on 17/10/09 and not 12/10/09 as recorded on the PCN. They had the audacity to state that the matter is closed as I have settled the fine despite my explanation that I would not chosen to pay and that my employer deducted this from my salary.
    I wondered if anyone has had a similar experience with conflicting dates, being notified at such a late date and being sucessful in getting a refund.
    Look forward to getting info/ advice.
    Health worker

  189. Paul Leahy says:

    Hi I too have fallen fowl of NKR/Bagleys road box junction and would dearly love some help in appealing I live in Cambridge and travel that way once in a blue moon so am unable to get there to photograph and look at the legality of the box itself, having read your posts it would appear that it’s not quite legal but I don’t know if H&F have addressed this, my alleged contravention was on 04/03/2010 @ 11.05am. I have started filling in the appeals form online but thought it best to seek some help so if any of you would help then it would be greatfully recived.

    • Paul Leahy says:

      Got an email from H&F after sending in my appeals form challenging the legality and reasoning of issueing the pcn, glad to say the email was quashing the pcn on the grounds that after looking into it the legality of the notice was in dispute.
      Happy days

  190. Gee says:

    Can someone please confirm whether the corners of box junctions must touch the corners of the curb at a T junction? There is one in Waltham Forest which does not – it touches one corner but falls short of the other one by about 2 feet. I can email pics if anyone can help?

  191. julian stern says:

    Could some please let me know if the box junction in Shaftesbury Avenue, WC2 is valid.

  192. Anna says:

    Dear Moneyboxjunction,

    I have some evidence that the yellow box junction in Ealing (Greenford rd/Otter Rd) is illegal. According to the Traffic Signs Manual the police should always be consulted. However, I have contacted the police and found that they have never been consulted on this junction and have a letter from the Met police confirming this.

    I have seen from the forum that others have challenged the legality of this site but no one has posted details of the outcome of any PATAS appeals.

    I would be very grateful for your opinion of whether to appeal on this basis or any other info you may have on this junction.

    With thanks,

    Anna

    • Victor says:

      Anna,

      At the same box junction Otter Rd/Greenford Rd I was issued with a fine. I felt it unfair and appealed to Eailing Council. Eailing Council did not accept my appeal and the matter is with PATAS.
      The hearing date was if I remember correctly the 1st of April, it got to about the 10th and I was worried I hadn’t heard anything, what I didn’t want is that if the appeal was lost and I didn’t make payment within the required time the fine would increase.
      So I phoned PATAS to ask them the outcome and the receptionist explained they have an 18 week delay so I won’t hear until after September from them.

      Some interesting things I learnt…

      i) I always had to respond within so many days to Eailing Council otherwise I would be assumed guilty and the fine would increase. I did not hear from Eailing Council for a very long time, 6 or 8 weeks and assumed the matter was closed. I then received the notification.
      It seems the time limits do not apply to the local authority, only the individual.

      ii) I was notified of a hearing date from PATAS.
      Then just before the hearing date I received a letter that the date has been moved.
      The very next day I got a pack from Eailing Council who had appealed against my appeal.
      It makes me think they issue so many fines and have so many people appeal to PATAS they use a system where it flashes up red if an appeal date is approaching so they can send something in at the last minute.

      iii) The appeal letter they sent to PATAS challenges two of the three points I raised in my defence.
      They have not mentioned the Otter Rd / Greenford Rd box does not meet the necessary requirements as set out in the (TSG or TSD I can’t remember which number drawing) guide.

      iv) Finally at the time of my alleged offence no warning signs were present within the required distance which is 150 metres from the box I recall.
      Recently I was in the same area and I notice signs have gone up. I don’t know when these were installed, if they were before or after your alleged offence.

  193. Anna says:

    Hi Victor,

    Your response is very interesting. I can’t believe you are still awaiting the verdict and will have to wait until September. It seems unnecessarily stressful, especially when it seems that the council are in the wrong.

    I agree with your point about time limits not applying to local authorities. We should be able to write back to Ealing informing them that as they passed the 28 day limit we are ignoring their rejection. I notice that they get their PNCs out pretty quickly – mine came in 4 days. It sounds like I might as well forget hearing back for another month or two.

    Thanks for the info. The signs were in place at the time of my ‘offence’, although I did not notice at the time, I drove past once I received the fine and spotted them.

    Good luck with your case. I’m hoping that PATAS will be so sick of getting appeals about this junction and its validity that they will tell Ealing to scrap it.

    Let us know how it goes,

    Anna

  194. shah says:

    Hi I was wondering if anyone knows if the Archway Road/Shepherds Hill road markings are compliant with the regulations. I am not sure if they are squares or diamonds and also I do not think they touch the curb.

    Thanks

    • Astra says:

      Any comments about the Archway/ Sheperds Hill road markings? I just got a penalty for the same junction box and had the same thoughts.

  195. Victor says:

    Anna et al,

    Some good news regarding Otter Road box junction, on Friday I recd. a letter from Eailing Council that they are withdrawing the appeal they made to PATAS.
    So best of luck to you all who are appealing against Eailing Council.

  196. ola says:

    Hi,
    please i need your help to appeal for a PCNfor entering a box. i have been paying unneccessary PCN until my firend told u can help. please help me, iam depressed as i recently lost my job and now is PCN.i have scanned the PCN i was issued , i need an email id to send it for you to see.
    please i will appreciate your help bcos of time.
    thanks

  197. kelvin says:

    hi moneyboxjunction,

    below is a link to the PCN i received for code 31.:

    1-http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg80/8797/7199pcnfront.jpg
    2-http://www.imgplace.com/viewimg80/8348/2251pcnback.jpg

    i have make some explanation on it for you to advise wht to do. this PCN is not true, it is unfair and thats why i need help.

    i will need a template to use for appealling immediately. please help me.
    Thanks

  198. John says:

    Do you get penalty points for junction box offences or is just a large fine?

    Thanks
    John

  199. Fred Ricketts says:

    Hi, I received a PCN in the post, for contravention code 31.Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited on the 19/07/10 at 12.57.I did not even know that I had done it. According to the two photos supplied by TFL. the first one shows Four cars including mine jumbled up in a picture with my number plate, the is no indication of where these car are in relation to the yellow box, what it does show is my number plate taken at 12.57.23secs, the second one shows my car without the number plate highlighted and I am just leaving the box with no cars behind me, I was going to turn right at the next set of lights which is less than 100 yards further on, this picture was taken at 12.57.04 after the first picture, As recall from the time the traffic was moving all the time, as I was thinking keep moving so I won’t be forced to be captured in the box, also How was I causing any traffic hold up as I was almost out of the box, and being a bus garage only buses come out of it and they are not the regular, I was lead to believe that yellow boxes where only valid when they joined at a junction with another road, not a bus garage. It appears to me that TFL is just using this site to make money because of their cut backs, Whilst I was there taking photos of the box because of the flow of traffic and the lights after the boxes and the narrowness of the road through a bottle neck, nearly every driver coming past got caught in the Box and never knew they were doing it, one photo I took shows that the box does not go right up to the corner as a drain is stopping it and it stops short of the drain. Any one help on this will be appreciated

  200. Fred Ricketts says:

    Hi, again, I forgot to mention that whilst I was taking photos I took a picture of a Bus stopped right where I supposadly had stopped, only mine shows he has his stop lights on and is turning right, IS THERE ONE LAW FOR US AND ANOTHER FOR TFL?.

  201. Fred Ricketts says:

    Sorry Again forgot to mention where these boxes are.PECKHAM HIGH STREET/PECKHAM BUS STATON (WEST BOX0.

  202. AVG says:

    Dear Money Box,

    I recently received a PCN for being in a yellow box on Greenford road.

    Although I have paid the fine I later discovered an article published in the Ealing Gazette stating that the box was in fact illegal due to its markings.

    Do you know whether the council have actually made amendments to the box or is it still illegal?

    Any help would be much appreciated

    • Shobhit Narain says:

      Hi,
      The box is still illegal and I have taken the council to small claims court to get £1000 for this illegal act. The council is yet to reply.
      Rgds,
      Shobhit

      • Oliver says:

        Hello, I have recieved a pcn perhaps in the same place on Greenford Road /Otter Road Ealing. I have seen a lot of messages about if the yellow box is illegal so I’m going to protest. Has there been any updates about this yellow box?

        Oliver

      • ozzie says:

        Hi. I just received a PCN for Greenford/Otter road yellow box!!! Before I challenge Ealing Council, could you please update me on the status of this box asap? Much appreciated.

  203. Jon says:

    Hi Mark, Ive received a PCN for a box junction cnr Liverpool Rd/Bromfield St N1, where they have a box junction where a rd turns into a dual carriageway. If you dont know the area, you easily track towards the right, which would enable you to flow through smoothly. Then as you see the road markings, it becomes obvious that you cant follow the right hand lane. You adjust leftwards and Hey presto, you are stuck in a box junction. Its a trap which must have caught many unsuspecting motorists. PLease advise how I might challenge the PCN (can send ;pdf copy in response to email). Jon (jon.fraenkel@anu.edu.au)

  204. mo says:

    hi, today at a traffic where the was two lane, one to go stright and left and the second lan to go right which was for busses only and i realised that later, there was a very long queue in the left lane and as i wanted to go right i went into the right but once i reched the traffic light i relised it is only for buses and thus when the light turned green in first gear i accelerated and went straight, I have been worried since its only been 9 months since i passed, am i like to get points or just a fine if anything? please help

  205. Arj says:

    Hi
    I have received PCN on 03/09/2010 for alleged traffic contravention of 31J – entering and stopping in a box juction when prohibited in The Broadway/Herbert Road, Southall (3) on 22/08/2010 at 17.08.
    I followed the car in front but had to stop as the cars in front stopped due to red light, I can’t remember exactly how long but I reversed and turned into Herbert Road to clear the box junction.
    Please could you kindly help me.

  206. Steve says:

    hi there,

    I am appealing against a yellow box junction pcn filmed at the junction of mare street and reading road, the left lane was closed after the turn which restricted the flow of traffic and i was stuck in the box for some time unable to reverse or go forward – they have rejected my appeal saying that the works were taking place in the bus lane so it would not effect the general flow of traffic but i disagree and would like to appeal this further.. can you help me fight this?

    many many thanks – great site by the way! steve 07904119784

  207. James says:

    Hi,

    I have received a PCN near Kew Bridge for Contravention Code: 31 Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.

    However TFL have only provided me with 3 images. 1 which is taken after I have moved from the box junction in order to see my number plate. The other 2 images show my back wheels on the box junction. Neither image shows the entrance to the box junction i.e. whether it was clear when I entered or not.

    I asked for video footage but it will cost £10 for them to send it and it will take a couple of weeks for me to receive.

    I noticed somewhere about the contravention code – should it be 31 or 31J – does it matter?

    Please advise what I should. Should I appeal and write within my appeal that I would request video footage. OR should I ask for video footage and wait for that to arrive before I appeal.

    I think they will hold the case until I receive the video footage.

    Thanks

    • James says:

      Ps. how long constitutes stopping, at maximum looking at the time between shots stationary for 10 seconds, at minimum a 4-5 few seconds.

  208. Praveen says:

    Hi,
    Ive been server a 31J by Ealing council for Greenford road/Otter Road on 15/10/2010. However Otter road was closed that evening due to road works as clearly visible in the picture they have sent me and that was the reason I was thought it would be ok to wait in the yellow box as I would not be blocking anyone. Do you think that is a fair arguement and worth appealing ?

    many thanks

  209. Gaby says:

    Hello there,

    I’m completely distraught as I’ve just received a PCN for being in the yellow box at the junction of Archway Road/Highgate Ave/Jacksons Ln/Shepherd’s Hill.

    I was travelling in traffic, but because the vehicles ahead were moving steadily, I followed and thought I would be fine. However, there was a van in front of me, blocking my view ahead and had no idea it would stop suddenly. I therfore stopped in the yellow box – however, I was not blocking any junction entrance or vehicle as I was positioned alongside an island.

    Do I have any grounds for appeal or am I totally in the wrong here? I’m really upset – this ticket couldn’t have come at a worse financial time.

    Any advice would be fantastic.
    Thank you.

    • Marianne Strange says:

      Hi Gaby, I have just been done at exactly the same spot and the photos indicate i was moving through (slowly) – did you have any success appealing? many thanks,Marianne

  210. Lucy says:

    HI
    I have already paid 2 fines to Ealing Council this year – for 30 seconds in a bus stop and in a bus lane on a bank hol(thought it was Sunday rules). This one I’m mad about.
    The picture shows the front half of my car in a box junction The Broadway/Herbert Road and it’s because I was moving forward and a car ( visible in their photos) shot out the side road and left no more space. I stopped ASAP but couldn’t avoid being partly in the box. It says I was there 14 seconds! It doesn’t seem fair that they should be allowed t fine me for that. Can you advise?
    Thanks,
    Lucy

  211. Will says:

    Hi there,

    I wonder if you could read this post I made on FightBack Forums, and let me know if I have a case to contest a PCN?
    It’s regarding an apparently notorious Yellow Box Junction at Battersea Rise / Northcote Road / St John’s Road

    This is the post: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=57470

    Perhaps Mr MoneyBox could take a quick look?

    Cheers!

  212. Jamie McBride says:

    Dear Mr MoneyBox,
    I have just received a PCN from Camden Council which seems unfair to me for two reasons:

    1) I was crawling forward most, if not all of the time, as the car in front did the same.
    2) Although the CCTV pictures show the rear of my car was on the box junction, I was not blocking the flow of traffic! – The part of the grid I was on extends a couple of metres past the actual square of junction and so the car was no obstruction.

    I would like to see the video footage (as opposed to some stills) to judge whether I was ever stationary or not, but the website’s not working at the moment (what a surprise). However I wonder if the fact that I was no obstruction would help.

    Do you think I have a chance for a succesful appeal?
    TIA
    Jamie

  213. john fortune says:

    hello
    my wife has just got a PCN for stopping in a box junction in ealing, it is a half box covering one side of the road, of the two corners that go to the kerbs only one meets up with the double yellow lines the other falls short of the double yellow lines by about 12 to 18 inches, would this make the box illegal.
    thanks john

  214. liam collard says:

    Hi there,

    I received a PCN for 180 pounds after they had been sending the details to the wrong address. They obviously made a typo, so I am now left with a bill of 180 pounds. Despite this which im sure they will bring down they are saying that I was stationary in a yellow box. My front wheel is in the box and that is simply because the traffic in fron suddenly slowed leaving me able to slow down but not fast enough for my front wheels to creep over the line. can they seriously fine me for this when I am clearly not causing an obstruction and am unsure weather i even was totally stationary as they will only show me a photo and not the video?

    Can i challenge it and what are my chances is i legally challenge them as i am not prepared to pay this on principle.

    Anyway any help would be fantastic as im furious they are trying to charge me for this.

  215. Mario says:

    Hi There,

    I got a PCN from TFL for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. I checked the wording on it, and all looks in order. I requested the DVD, as I couldn’t recall the incident. It is in regards to Finchely road/Fortune green junction.
    Which to me look dodgy, but would like to consult someone about it.(i took some photos the other day.)

    It was a morning traffic and i was caught behind a van, I stopped for a few seconds and cleared the junction well in time before they turned to red. causing no obstruction to anyone. The design of this junction to me has a lot to wish for, and it is hardly visible from the direction i was going from.

    If you have a moment, please send an email I will prepare all the documents in the meantime. I would appreciate a moment of your time.

  216. James says:

    Hello

    I received a PCN from TfL for a code 31 entering and stopping in a box junction at East India Dock Road / Chrisp Street. The images they sent me do not confirm anything and so I have requested a video copy before I am able to decide if I should make a representation or if I should pay the charge. Will they freeze my 14 day 50% reduced payment period whilst I wait for their response?

    Full details of the PCN etc are on the Fightback Forums

    Also I have been looking at the design of the box on Google Street view and I cannot see that any of the lines meet any of the corners and from what I read at least 2 lines should meet the corners. I have emailed DFT and Tower Hamlets council to see if they have received special dispensation for a non-standard design.

    I would appreciate your assistance.

    Regards

    James

    • Hi,
      This isn’t a reply to your question but wondered if when you appealed about the two corners (I noticed that on google too) was you let off or did you have to pay. Its just that my husband has received a PCN today in post at that junction.
      Kind regards
      Anne Worsdell

  217. Lucy says:

    I’ve had a PCN for stopping in a box junction in Waltham Forest. I’m going to watch the video footage on Thursday. From my memory, it was very heavy traffic which was moving slowly but unfortunately came to a stop after I’d entered the box (I might be wrong, I have to check) So I had about 15 seconds when my back wheels were in the box. I wasn’t obstructing the traffic flow. Any advice would be appreciated.

  218. ConstantPCN says:

    I have recieved 13 PCNs in batches, I did a biggest mistake, I started using my car to go to work in order to pick up and drop my 4 years old daughter to nursery and start using a prohibited right turn since 02/03/2011 – 16/03/2011. The whole story is mentioned under this forum:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=60209

    Please if you can advise as they have rejected my query and ask me to pay £780
    Thank you very much in advance.

    • Dave says:

      You used a prohibited right turn. It’s as simple as that. It is a no right turn, and you turned right. That is why you were served with the penalty notices. You have no case.

  219. golfdriver says:

    Kings road with bagleys lane.

    So i got this ticket too. apparently stopping illegally in a box junction. The photo shows and proves absolutely nothing – you can see practically nothing of the road. My plan is to first request to see the video footage and take it from there.

    The only problem is that the fine will apparently increase if i request to see the evidence since it’ll likely mean that it will take more than 14 days from the penalty being issued. That seems unfair- if i am guilty (have no recollection of doing this) then i’ve effective payed an extra £65 just to see the evidence :(.

    Any advice on this would be appreciated. It’s my first driving penalty ever, so im pretty stressed out about this.

    • Mike Collins says:

      Sorry but you are stuffed. I have been done twice on this junction it is a great revenue earner for the council. I was trapped by a bus jumping the red light and trapping me and the car behind on the junction. I suggest you pay up and go out of your way to trap buses on box junctions in the future, I am!!

      • golfdriver says:

        Hello there. i’ve since since iamge stills on the incident and it gets interesting.

        My left lane was CLEAR when i entered the box junction (aka Sheikh). While driving along a car undertakes me on the left and takes that space.

        I am going into view the footage this week. Any more updates would be appreciated.

        Thank you mark,

  220. Mark Chadwick says:

    I’ve just received a PCN for stopping in a boxed junction at Bounds Green Road / N11 and the photographic evidence is inconclusive. It shows my rear wheels are on the line exiting the box and my brake lights are on. It is therfore not clear as to whether I was actually stationary or whether I was slowing to pull up clear of the box. So I plan on requesting actual footage from the roadside camera to show me stationary and whether I was forced to come to a stop due a car changing lanes in front of me. I would also like to know if the box complies with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002 as the box does not ‘meet’ any kerb and is painted in the middle of one half of the T-Junction. I understand that this may be deemed a legitimate box if Haringey had approval from DfT which I will also request along with the original plans. Is there anything else I need to know / submit to challenge this PCN successfully?

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Regards

    Mark Chadwick

    • Mark Chadwick says:

      As an update I have received a reply from Haringey Council who have told me they cannot reply to my representation as the vehicle is registered to my wife. She was a passenger at the time of the alleged offence and so how can she make representation in regards to my actions! – This is bureaucracy gone mad!

  221. SAK says:

    Hi,
    In March, 2011 I was issued with two PCNs on two separate almost consecutive days about the infamous box junction at Greenford road/Otter road. I have read the blogs on your website with interest. I intend to appeal to PATAS but not sure whether to argue the point about the legality of the box or the use of the CCTV, or what? Has there been any cases won against the council so that I can refer to them in support of my appeal? Your prompt reply is much appreciated as I have to appeal soon.

  222. Dana says:

    Hi Guys,

    I got caught trying to go straight on in a box junction. A bus from the opposite direction decided to turn right very slowly and slightly stopping in the middle of a box junction for no reason as there was no traffic. I was caught in the box junction and could not see the traffic light due to the bus. Whilst the bus obstructed me I got caught in the box junction. had the bus not have turned or even stopped I would have been fine. Can I appeal?? Someone please help. Thanks!

    • Dave says:

      No. The contravention is entering a box junction with no clear exit. If you were behind a bus turning right “slowly”, you obviously did not have a clear exit and should therefore not have entered the box junction.

      Sorry, you’re stuffed too. Pay up

  223. Sarabjeet says:

    Hi, i ‘ve recieved acctv footage on request from Ealing Council Parking sevices as my vehicle was recorded coming to a stand still inside the yellow box of Greenford Road.
    Can I defend myself as the vehicle in front of me was moving quiet freely but slowed down and stopped whereas i had already entered the box.

    Many Thanks

    • Mark Chadwick says:

      Unfortunately it would seem you have no case to appeal the notice. If you entered a box junction wihtout a line of clear exit then you are in the wrong. Unless you can find something about the box junction that makes it none standard and prove that the Council are enforcing an unauthorised box junction then you are looking at having to pay up. Sorry.

  224. Dana says:

    Ive received a box junction ticket after 2 weeks of it happened. Does this make it invalid. Heard from people that the deadline is 2 weeks but some people say it longer. Any advice would be great! Thanks!

  225. Marianne Strange says:

    Hi, I have just been informed by my lease car company of two PCN charges for entering and stopping in a box junction. As my car is a company car, the fine is sent to the lease company – Arval who then send it on to me with an additional administration charge of £30. One PCN was issued on LANCING ST, NW1 and the other is vague as to where is occurred: Archway RD/JACKSON LN/HIGHGATE AV/SHEPHERDS HILL. These both happened some time ago so can not remember what actually happened. But looking at the 4 different photos, they are all taken at different times as i move through the box, surely this indiciates that i was travelling through the box over a 30 second period? Also, in the second incident, i am clearly moving straight ahead as someone moves across from the left lane to the right forcing me to slow down but again the times seem to indicate that i am still travelling through the box? please help, i am willing to contest these – any info welcome!!! many thanks, Marianne

  226. Josh says:

    I have just recieved a PCN.
    The traffic ahead didnt move forwards as i expected So i pulled up behind a van. My rear was still in the box and I was at an angle facing out into the pavement. I had plenty of room to manouever into the next lane over however because this just merged back into the same one within a few metres I didnt move into it.
    Because I had a clear exit, although I didnt move into it – can I appeal?

  227. Dave says:

    no. You entered the box junction when it wasn’t clear ahead (you merely “expected” the traffic to move). When you realised you were stopping and saw a way out of the box, you did not take it, a foolish error. I suspect if you were to make representations, they would not agree with you and insist that you pay the charge.

  228. james hubbard says:

    Hi

    I got a PCN on 26/07/2011 in which i was charged for the offence on 16/07/2011 @ 10:56am. I was charged with Entering and Stopping in a box junction when prohibited in Battersea Rise/ Northcote Rd/ St Johns Road.
    Is this Yellow Box Legal?
    Has anyone contested it and won?
    If what is the language to be used to try and successfully appeal this and get it dropped.
    I am sick of TFL robbing me maximum fares on Oyster, there surely can’t get away with this please please please assist on this

  229. Dave says:

    Firstly, I doubt TFL are robbing you of the maximum fare. Remember to always touch in and touch out. If you don’t, the computer will take maximum fare. I think this is “fair” as it prevents people from abusing the system and increasing the costs for the rest of us.

    Now, to the Box…

    I have heard it is not legal as the top left corner of the box does not go up to the edge (although I don’t know if this has been corrected). If you have a reason why you stopped (e.g. the exit was clear when you entered by something e.g. a bus pulled out or a person walked out) then you can make representations (this is the first stage before a full-blow “appeal”. They might not agree with you but they might still let you off as a “gesture of goodwill”.

    However, if you entered when the exit was not clear (and you know if you did or not, don’t kid yourself), then this will be evidenced by their camera and it is unlikely you will be successful.

    Do let us know how you get on.

  230. Darren Farrar says:

    Hi, was caught last friday in my company van in junction box on new kings road/bagley in chelsea, my companys past the paperwork to me. I was in mid flow traffic and was unable to move once i hit the box, its total shit that a bus can pull out and stop the flow and it gets me a ticket!!

  231. Liam Nunes says:

    I have just received a PCN for stopping in a box junction on Green Lanes, about 3 weeks ago. I’ve watched the video footage, and it shows the area ahead of me clear as I enter the box, however, someone on the right lane crosses into my lane as I’m halfway through the box and takes my place ahead of me outside the box, leaving me inside it. Does this give me a chance for appeal as the area ahead of me was clear until someone else crossed into my lane…?

    • Dave says:

      Yes as the contravention only applies if you enter the box when your exit is not clear. if there is video evidence demonstrating that you entered the box when your exit was clear you should be successful.

      • ALAN KIMBER says:

        You may have a case for appeal as it seems from what you say you were FORCED to stop in the YBJ. The contravention only applies if you enter into it BEFORE your exit is clear.

  232. olivia says:

    Hi,
    I am not sure how this site work, so i am trying to see if anyone can advice me.

    I have been issued a pcn prohibited turn-no left turn at 0949
    But the sign is no left turn between 6 and 10. I was waiting for the bollard to go down which i usually do, and also all local resident.
    Because the bollard sometime goes down before 10.
    Do i have ground for appeal.
    Its in barking and dagenham- bastable avenue
    Thank you

  233. toni says:

    I received a PCN for deptford Bridge, where I moved so that I removed my vehicle from causing an obstruction.

    Moving ti forward to allow joining traffic put me in a yellow box.

    Can I appeal, as surely the yellow boxes are to ease traffic?

  234. elle says:

    hi, i have received a pcn for entering and stopping in new kings road/bagleys lane and have seen somewhere on the internet that the junction has changed since they were granted original permission to be out of the guidelines and so is now not legal.. can you tell me if this is the case as the photos clearly show us in the box for about 15 seconds which makes me so mad as they have quite obviously set up the following set of lights to stay on red to catch alot of people out. thanks

    • ALAN KIMBER says:

      Hi Elle,
      Firstly consider the facts! in which direction were you traveling to cross the junction. East/West, West/East or making an exit from Bagleys Lane? The PCN should clearly state the junction, which as in my case says, Box junction-New Kings Road. j/w Bagleys Lane. if this is the case then you may have good reason to appeal againt your PCN, because the junction is NOT BAGLEYS LANE. It is in actual fact New Kings Road junction of Harwood Terrace. Simply claim you were not in nor did you cross any junction that was adjacent with Bagleys Lane. Therefore the PCN has been incorrectly made out and could be invalid. My situation is thus. I stopped in that YBJ after turning right from Harwood Terrace and received a PCN. Now in my case I am arguing that I was never in nor did I evermake an exit from Bagleys Lane. This case has been ongoing now since January this year 2011 and they have only just sent me a video of the alledged offence. Good Luck, Alan

  235. Madhu says:

    We got PCN on a CCTV caught to park on an unrestricted bus path. What is annoying me is i got two letters each of £130 4 minutes apart.
    Please advise.

  236. Robert Bromley says:

    Hello, I have just received my second pcn in a week for entering and stopping in New Kings Road/Bagleys Lane. In both cases the photos clearly show me in the box for about 10 seconds because of the way the traffic movement and lights are set up. It’s a money pit. Even though you know they man a camera permanantly it is sometimes impossible to avoid getting the short straw. If they say they need to keep traffic moving they should fix the mess up. Is there anywhere we can find out how much this camera makes per day, maybe the freedom of information rules ?. Hammersmith Council Highways have obviously set up the double junction boxes and light sequences so the second set stay on red 1-2 minute longer to catch people out and make money. However, as this is the junction on the New Kings Road with Harewood Terrace not Bagleys Lane can the PCN be challenged based on that.

    Thanks
    Robert

  237. Robert says:

    Hello,

    Just found this list of earnings for the Hammershith Box Junctions 3/2010-3-2011. It seems obviouse there is a set up problem at the New Kings Road and Bagleys Lane Junction that is being exploited by the Council. If they spent the c.£1m on fixing the problem nobody would have an issue but it probably goes towards increasing the profits of camera companies. The Harwood Rd Junction is part of the bagleys lane complex, so between them this junctions earnes 70% of their Revenue, the rest being earned at talgart

    Box Junction – Butterwick and Hammersmith Road £180
    Box Junction – Fulham Rd and Jerdan Place 0
    Box Junction – Harwood Rd j/w Effie Rd £10,860
    Box Junction – New Kings Rd j/w Bagleys Lane £869,257
    Box Junction – Shepherds Bush Green – east end 0
    Box Junction – Shepherds Bush Green j/w Goldhawk Rd 0
    Box Junction – Shepherds Bush Green j/w Goldhawk Rd 0
    Box Junction – Talgarth Rd j/w Butterwick – £390,275
    Box Junction – Wood Lane j/w Du Cane Road 0
    Box Junction – Wood Lane j/w South Africa Road 0
    Box Junction – Hammersmith Rd j/w Shepherds Bush Rd 0
    Box Junction-New Kings Rd j/w Wandsworth Bdge Rd £3,000

    Robert

  238. Paul R Butler says:

    I have this morning received a PCN for New Kings Road/Bagleys Lane, just a single picture of my car turning right, brake lights on! I have noted the previous comments, and from memory I was turning, but couldn’t proceed as there was traffic coming towards me, blocking my previously clear exit. I am ultra cautious at box junctions and would not enter if my exit wasn’t clear, from all the previous comments it would appear that the traffic light timing is set to catch the unwary. I intend to appeal, as the road junction location is incorrectly given, and I was unable to proceed due to oncoming traffic. Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

  239. Walter says:

    I also got a PCN for the NKR/Bagley’s Lane. I remember the traffic being incredibly heavy with a big van in front of me blocking my view of the lights, the image doesn’t actually show anything, probably because I was right up behind the van to make sure I wasn’t in the box so they waited a couple of minutes for the traffic to clear a bit to grab my number plate. This being my first traffic offence ever in over 10 years of driving makes me a little mad as I’m also ultra cautious. I’m probably just going to pay it though as £65 for peace of mind is worth it over £195 risk. Has anyone successfully contested this junction?

  240. Doug Charteris says:

    Hi – what a great site!

    I got a ticket from Ealing for stopping in yellow box junction and my bone of contention is that When I started driving this would have been seen as a mistake. I didn’t even obstruct the junction just entered the box. It is so obviously about revenue and nothing to do with driving. Why is a parking department dealing with traffic offences anyway? I will be appealing to PTAS but could do with some coaching – I freely admit (off record) that I have entered the box and stopped – It just that 99% drivers would do the same!

  241. Sharm says:

    Hi I have recieved a PCN for stopping in a box junction on forest rd -Waltham Forest, the incident occured on the 13th the letter recieved is dated the 10th – on the 28th day!! which is frustrating
    I hardly remember when this occured, however I dont believe I stopped very long in the box junction and was probably stopped there due to traffic as the incident occured at 17.52 which is peak time for traffic on this road.
    Please can you advice how and if I can appeal?

  242. Jimmy says:

    Hello,

    This is just a quick note to say that based on my upheld appeal that was assessed by PATAS on 4th Nov 2011 regarding the YBJ at Archway Rd/Jackson’s Lane, the junction has been deemed as non compliant as it has not been maintained appropriately. The yellow lines are so faded that it is not possible to see the end of the box at the point of entry. My appeal was upheld on this point despite the fact that I entered and stopped in the junction when the route was not clear.

    As far as I know this sets a precedent and potentially means that any ticket issued by TfL in the past month (or more) at this junction can be appealed on this point.

    I will happily upload all documentation at the earliest opportunity to help other drivers who are caught at this junction, which I believe is one of the most lucrative for TfL in London.

    Please let me know if you would benefit from seeing any correspondence between myself and TfL as I will be happy to help. Please contact me at jimmyharris80@hotmail.com and I will forward details.

    Cheers
    James

  243. Vlad says:

    Fined for leaving some space for pedestrian crossing between the car in front. Could have easily fit in the space without leaving back wheels in the box! Well done Transport For London!!! Watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64SugC8tx2I

  244. Vlad says:

    Is this road design is safe? It is money making design with pedestrians safety in the last place. Merging lanes are right after the money box with pedestrian crossing in between. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgrhB5Xc3io&NR=1

  245. Sita says:

    I parked my car on a residential road, with the left front and back wheels mounted on the pavement. When I returned, the car had disappeared and after making enquiries discovered that the car had been towed away on behalf of the local authority. After taking a train and a bus, I arrived at the car pound and had to pay 255 pounds (sorry pound sign not working on my keyboard) to get the car back. I returned to the area where I had parked and found that there was no sign to say that I could not park there and secondly that it would be towed away if I did. I am going to appeal. I was given an explanatory leaflet about my rights to appeal. There are 7 statutory grounds for making representations against the removal of the vehicle. Possible grounds that I am considering are that firstly that the place where I had parked was not in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions or that the fixed penalty notice was not handed to me before the vehicle was removed or that there has been a procedural impropriety. Although for the latter I have to apparently show that there has been a failure to observe any requirement imposed on it by various Acts including the Traffic Management Act 2004. I would be grateful for your guidance as to whether the local authority had the authority to remove my vehicle and that I have a right to the return of my monies and compensation for the shock, distress, costs and inconvenience caused.

  246. Dave says:

    why did you park with your wheels on the pavement? you’re not allowed to do that unless it is marked.

  247. Ian D Sinclair says:

    My cancer suffering step daughter recently received a penalty charge notice for contravening a box junction last July ( 2011) and has only just received t pcn to the tune of £200.
    Tower Hamlets Council have told her that if she supplies them with
    proof of treatment to her illness they may consider quashing the
    penalty that allegedly occurred in the box junction of East India Dock Road and Chrisp Street,London E14.

    • Dave says:

      Two issues here:

      1) If you have only just received it, it is surely too late by law to enforce it and now void.

      2) If she received it some time ago (i.e. within the limits) but was not physically able to access it due to being in hospital / having treatment etc., then their response seems to be reasonable; however, with all due respect, just because people have physical-health conditions does not entitle them to exemptions from contraventions. This would not be a reason for it to be void, although they may simply choose to use their discretion.

  248. andrewje says:

    I have just received a PCN for blocking the box junction at Talgarth Rd j/w Butterwick rd in Hammersmith. Has anybody successfully appealed a PCN at this junction. From bing maps it looks like a very non standard box junction? http://binged.it/yPOC7P anyone agree?

    Andrew

    • Paula Webb says:

      Dear Andrew,
      I got caught in this YB in April, which now appears to have been modified since the Hammersmith flyover works began (annoyingly, I should have been on the flyover, but the signage going West on the A4 was so bad I found myself negotiating the delights of the gyratory instead). I challenged the PCN on the basis of the box being non-standard – actually I clipped one edge of it, rather than actually crossing it, so bad is the layout if you are following the route to the M4. Looking at the Bing images (which precede the flyover problems) the box looks even less compliant. Needless to say my challenge has been rejected and I have been given another 14 days to pay the reduced fine – but I think this may be their standard response. I asked for DoT plans, which H&F say are approved, and I am told will follow in the post. When I have them I will decide whether to appeal.
      I notice your PCN was 4 months ago. What did you do in the end?
      Given the cash generated at this jct, I almost certainly will!
      Paula

  249. Kal says:

    Hi All,

    I received a London congestion charge notice on the 3rd of Jan 2012 but its for a charge on the date of 06/04/2011 which is 8 months old.

    Is this notice legal or even valid after such a long delay?

    Thanks in advance for any advice

  250. adnan says:

    Hi guys, excellent site btw

    i received a pcn for entering a box junction when my exit was not clear – i accept i did this but it was because i was distracted because about 10 seconds earlier i had to pull to the side of the road to allow an ambulance through – in any case i do not believe i stopped in the box junction i was crawling

    all i want to ask is, to the left of the lane i am travelling in is a bus stop approx 5 cars long – technically making a second lane that i could have entered but chose not to – is the bus stop considered a lane for the purposes of me being able to clear the box junction by entering that “lane”

    i must point out, its a bus stop and not a bus lane

    thanks very much

  251. Adam says:

    Hi Moneybox, Ealing council have sent me a letter with penalty for ’99j stopped on a pedestrian crossing and/orcrossing area marked by zig-zags’ the 2 photos in the letter show me parked and pulling away all within 16 seconds. First photo at 21:20:40 and second at 21:20:56!!! So i think i pulled in, checked the sign, realised it was a mistake and pulled off. How can i fight this with them? Please help me…

  252. ujjal says:

    Sir
    I beg most respectfully state that I am Mr. Ujjal Mukherjee citizen of India My age is 24 years. I come from very poor family. My father is very poor farmer ,He is a cancer present, He has not any money to bearing our family maintaining cost because he is old person and no way his source of income. Sir if you provide help me-my accounts details are given below:

    Account Name : Ujjal mukherjee
    Account type : NetBanking
    Account No : 00000031894579598
    Bank Name : state bank of india
    Bank Branch : A.D.B ITACHANDA BRANCH GUSKARA ,BURDWAN
    IFS CODE- SBIN0006193
    Bank C.I.F/NO : 86113835138
    Country : INDIA
    Email-ujjalmukherjee2008@gmail.com

  253. thelma lever says:

    I am a female disabled driver 77yrs.I was parked in a disabled area on a pulic highway….I have got parking ticket for the rear of my car being 4″ outside the area into a double yellow lines area….Can I appeal, as I thought disabled people could park fully on yellow lines anyway,anywhere in the country so long as they don’t cause an obstruction……….4″…Is the traffic warden being a bit over zealous…should I appeal.

  254. Alan says:

    I just received a pcn for the battersea rise/northcote rd/st johns hill and I was there early in the morning and when I entered the junction it was clear and it is impossible to see if the traffic had cleared up top as it goes round a bend and I had to stop in the junction as the traffic did not clear so is there anyway to appeal against this pcn

    • Hassan says:

      Hi Alan

      if there certainly is, I got PCN for the same place, I used the following to appeal.

      1) check the wording on your PCN.

      if its same as my then use this word for word :

      ———–

      re:Penalty Charge Notice GTXXXXXX representation
      I would like to challenge the above PCN served on vehicle REGISTRAION on the following grounds:

      The penalty change is defective and unenforceable,

      The original Penalty Charge Notice states:
      “A penalty charge of £130 is payable before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of this notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%. If you fail to pay the penalty charge or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, a charge certificate may be issued to you increasing the penalty charge payable to £195 (less any monies already received). Failure to pay the increased amount may result in a county court order against you and a warrant being issued to bailiffs.”
      
There is a clear, and incorrect, confluence of the two provisions. The wording on the Penalty Charge Notice produced to me does not comply with the legal requirements.

      I would like to refer to PATAS 211032734A, 2100628598 and 2100498211.

      The ‘date of service’ provision contained in paragraph
      1(3) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act 2003 (‘LLAA 2003′) does not
      apply to the 14-day and 28-day payment periods specified by section 4(8)(iii) and (iv)
      of LLAA 2003, as it only applies to the Enforcement Authority having a discretion to
      disregard representations received by them after the end of the period of 28 days
      beginning with the date on which the Penalty Charge Notice in question was
      served. This is clear from paragraph 1 (3) of Schedule 1 to LL.4.A 2003.

      By staling ”If you fail to pay the penalty charge notice or make representations before
      the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice, a
      charge certificate may be issued 10 you increasing the penalty charge payable 10
      £195″ the Penalty Charge Notice conflates the “28 day period”for payment which
      begins with the date of the penalty charge notice, as provided for in section 4(8)(iii),
      with the “28 days “for the making of representations which in fact only begins with
      the date of service of the penalty charge notice in paragraph 1 (3) of Schedule 1 to
      LLAA 2003.

      In light of the above ,In my view there is a serious possibility of real prejudice here. The enforcement cannot be permitted in these circumstances. This is a substantive defect that renders the penalty unenforceable.

      Thank you in advance for your consideration.
Kind regards,



      Mr JoePublic
      ———————-

  255. ray says:

    I just received a PCN for Ealing Road (camera 233), Wembley. From the two still pictures it doesnt really show that I was actually stationary. However, I requested the video and got it really quickly (big surprise there).

    From what I can see, I did enter the box junction but only because I thought that the traffic ahead was going to move and thereby allowing me to cross the box junction.

    But I had to reverse when I couldnt get across but the car behind had already moved ahead and so I could not get out of the box. At no time did I block any vehicles. Does this sound too lame an excuse?

    Judging by the video evidence, they must have someone monitoring that camera every day. It was a very busy day due to the England match that evening.

    Any chance of challenging?

  256. frylnrind says:

    All trace holidays to March 8!!!

  257. HariV says:

    What a great thread!

    Am I correct in thinking that an APPEAL must be received within 28 days of the date the PCN was issued; and the PCN must be issued within 28 days of the date of the alleged contravention?

    eg

    date of alleged contravention: 22 Feb
    date of PCN issue: 29 Feb

    so if I send my appeal by registered post to arrive between 22 and 26 March they will automatically be outside their 28 days to re-issue the PCN (even if they could, which I don’t know)

    The PCN shows the time of the alleged contravention as 18:09 but the still photo from the CCTV shows 18:10:35. there is no way I spent 1m35s in the box junction so I think the PCN is invalid.

    • HariV says:

      Unless …. I stopped so as not to enter it, and waited until the exit was clear, so they have me for 1m35s with my front bumper / wheels just in….

      What evidence do they have to show me if I ask for it – the full video tape showing me entering and stopping?

  258. Paul says:

    hi I have just received a PCN for entering and stopping in a Box Junction at Archway rd, Jacksons Ln, highgate.

    The traffic was moving. The picture shows me driving behind a large lorry which suddenly stopped. I was caught in the box junction for 6 seconds. The lorry then continued to drive and I received a fine through the post. Can you offer any advice with my appeal.

    PS This is a great site and i am astonished to hear how many people have been unjustly fined by local councils with these ridiculous ways of generating money!!

    Ps of anyone has any success with their appeals please post in on here so that it helps others in the same situation.

    Many thanks

    Paul

  259. BOB says:

    Re the Bagleys Lane and New Kings Road junction, I quite easily found almost a dozen recent cases where Hammersmith and Fulham has lost and, on on occasion, been criticised by the Adjudicators at PATAS for their persistent misinterpretation of the right turn exemption at this junction.

    I a seeking to build a collection of letters or statements for this particular junction. So I will be interested to hear from anyone who is prepared to provide a statement that may be used at a sharing in mutual support of the victims of this scam.

    Here is a flavour of the cases the council lost

    However two particular cases of interest are from May 2012 where Adjudicators agreed that the authority for that junction (and the others granted at the same time) was wrong because the authority was for the old version of diagram 1043 but the diagrams themselves were those for 1044.

    Case Reference: 2110179457 Bagleys Lane and New Kings Road, decided on 4th May 2011.
    The Adjudicator allows the appeal because the Appellant was ‘prevented from completing the right turn by … other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn’.

    Case Reference: 2110286978 also at New Kings Road/Bagleys Lane and decided on 1st July 2011. The Adjudicator allows the appeal because the prohibition does not apply to any person who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction in order to turn right but only for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn either by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles, which are stationary whilst the vehicle is waiting to complete a right turn.

    The vehicle entered the box junction in order to effect a right turn and due to other vehicles it was stationary whilst waiting to complete the right turn.

    Case Reference: 211019975A New Kings Road/Bagleys Lane was decided on 6th August 201.
    The adjudicator contradicted the LBHF statement.

    However, it is not correct to state as the authority does, that the exemption is limited to vehicles prevented from moving only by oncoming traffic. The full exemption allows a vehicle to stop “for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

    In this case the appellant entered the box behind a large white van. That van was turning right and that van came to a halt so preventing the appellant from moving on. It appears therefore that the second half of the exemption must apply in this case and the appeal is thus allowed.

    Case Reference: 2110427479 at Bagleys Lane and New Kings Road was decided on 14th Nov 201. It involved three cases from the same appellant all of which the Adjudicator allowed.

    The Adjudicator made the point that the vehicle concerned entering a box junction to turn right was entitled to the exemption because:

    … the potential exemption arises with the phrase “or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn”. In these cases, the appellant was “waiting to complete a right turn”. He was prevented from doing so by stationary vehicles – in the first case, a bus, in the second, a number of motor cars.

    For completeness, I should add that if I am wrong about the construction of that phrase, an alternative view is that the traffic in front was also turning right and had not completed that manoeuvre. Either way I find the exemption is properly claimed.

    In Case Reference: 2110476077 at Bagleys Lane and New Kings Road, decided on 7th October 2011 the Adjudicator allows the appeal and goes further into discussing the effect of traffic on the main thoroughfare.

    “The footage shows that the vehicle has entered the box junction to turn right, as sequenced by the traffic lights, and is stationary behind vehicles which have also crossed the lights and behind those on the main though fare. I am satisfied that the Appellant is entitled to the benefit of the exemption which applies under paragraph 7(2)(b), as the vehicle stopped for only so long as was prevented from completing the right turn by vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete the right turn.”

  260. Simon Lewis says:

    Hi can you tell me if the yellow box junction at the Broadway/ Herbert road is enforceable or not?

  261. Sophie says:

    I just got a pcn for box junction- new kings road j/w bagleys lane dated 14/03/12. I moved out of this address on 11/03/12 and my landlord only just forwarded me my post three months later. The fine is now £202. I would have paid the £65 right away had I known.
    I am going to ring and appeal due to the fact I simply didn’t know and wasn’t ignoring/avoiding the notice. Let you know how I get on.

  262. HariV says:

    Sophie, Make sure you also view the actual video footage of the alledged offence. You can view it in Fulham Town Hall.

    In many instances the footage doesn’t properly show the offence and the operators just try it on.

    Don’t forget the offence is “Entering AND stopping when prohibited” so if, when you entered it, you were not prohibited (ie there was a viable exit) then even if you stopped you have not broken the law.

    The Bagleys Lane junction is a notorious money-making junction and does nothing for road safety or traffic easing.

  263. Dale says:

    Hi,

    I have received a PCN for Box junction Worple Road j/w The Downs.

    There is only 1/3 of my car (back of the car) in the box junction from supplied pictures from Merton Council.

    The reason I had to stop with my my car partially in the box junction was due to cars in front of me not utilising all the space offered to them. Is this grounds for successful appeal?

  264. HariV says:

    I am no expert – but, as I said above, I believe the offence is “Entering AND stopping when prohibited” so if, when you entered it, you were not prohibited (ie there was a viable exit) then even if you stopped you have not broken the law.

    So, when you entered the junction was there an exit? If there was, and during your time the exit became blocked, then I think you are ok.

    However from what you say, if there were cars in front when you entered, and therefore you could not have exited, then you have a problem

  265. Dale says:

    Thanks HariV,

    I have been reading quite a few posts and forums and there seems to be a case for appeal if there were no stationery vehicles prohibiting an exit from the YBJ upon entering the YBJ.

    This is the situation in my case and the photographic evidence provided is also from the side streeet where the road ahead of me on which I am travelling on is not visible. There is clearly a moving vehilce in front of me upon entering the YBJ from the still photographs provided.

    Another technicality I have read is that the YBJ markings should not extend beyond the Junction and it appears that this YBJ does. I will have to revisit the junction to make sure.

    Thanks for your comments.

    • Ian says:

      Dale – I have also been caught at the same junction (Worple Rd with the Downs). However, I have done my research and think that the junction doesn’t comply with the Regulations because it is a T-junction and the box covers the entire width of the road. There are several cases where an appeal has been successful on this point (it should only extend across half the width of the road at a T-junction). I am filing an Appeal. I can give you more info if you need it.

  266. HariV says:

    There is a lot written about box junctions and markings that don’t comply with regulations – but I think they are getting fewer as councils are either modifying them or applying for a special dispensation.

    Regarding your case, it may be worth appealing but if there were vehicles in the junction ahead of you (moving or not) then you might have a problem because, at the point you entered your exit wasn’t clear.

    Good luck – let us know how you do.

  267. bob says:

    Dale,

    1st port of call is Pepipoo and do a search to see what other experiences drivers have had. There may also be a copy of any exemption.
    2nd. Do a FOIA request to both the council and Dept of Transport for any exemption in place for this junction. DoT can be done online.
    3rd. Go to the PATAS website and the Register of Searches. Choose a start date, set council = Merton and Decision = allowed. Now work your way forward. Most cases will not be relevant, but you will come across cases similar to yours which will give you an idea of what arguments have succeeded in the past and why.

  268. Nikki says:

    I have got a pcn for stopping in a box junction but I had to stop as a 4×4 went from the left lane at the lights and moved I to my lane as we passed the lights and round the corner I don’t think this is very fair what so ever Is there anything I can do. I had my appeal rejected please help u feel like I’ve been penalised for nothing x

  269. bob says:

    Hello Nicki,

    which junction was it? The contravention occurs on the conditions when you enter the box. so if they change by another vehicle stealing your exit lane, then there is no contravention. If you go to Pepipoo and search Bagleys Lane, you will see a case reference for just that scenario near the top on the results.

    Do remember to claim £10 an hour for your wasted time

  270. Paula Webb says:

    Just won my appeal re the Talgarth road/Butterwick junction – though on errors in their witness statement, so not sure what merit my other points about the junction layout had. However, as has been stated by many others, always challenge, and if you think you’ve got a better than 50:50 chance of winning on appeal, do that too. It’s only at the appeal stage that you get to see their full evidence as a matter of course – read it/check it carefully. In my case it was full of inconsistencies and errors of fact. Good luck.

  271. slsh1 says:

    Don’t seem to be able to post rather than “reply”. Sorry if I’m being techno thick.
    I’ve got a PCN for the New King’s Road/Bagley’s Road junction and I am both relieved and horrified to see so many posts about it and what a money making machine it obviously is.
    I believe my PCN is worth fighting on the point of law regarding the situation at the time of entering the box and I believe the photographic evidence supports this. (The traffic was moving when i entered and as soon as I realised it was stopping because of the change in traffic lights ahead, I stopped and waited right on the edge of the box, not blocking any other traffic, until the exit was clear).
    I would be grateful for any advice for how best to word the appeal and whether the junction layout is “legal”.
    Many thanks.

  272. It’s an remarkable article in support of all the internet viewers; they will take advantage from it I am sure.

  273. steven naylor says:

    Hi just wondering if you could advise me i have just received one of these pcn for entering a box junction in London however the offence apparently occurred in March 2012 and i’ve only just got it and it is now October is this right

  274. James says:

    Hi. I was issues with a box junction PCN by Hammersmith and Fulham council on the 1/11/2012 but the offence in question was commited on the 1/11/2011. An exact year ago? Can I appeal this due to it being a year late?

    Thanks

  275. Paula Webb says:

    If you are sure the offence was a year ago, and there is no good reason why their notice has taken so long to reach you (e.g. you moved house but didn’t tell the DVLC,, or you were in a hire car) then yes.
    Even if the offence was committed this year, their evidence dates will not then tally with their PCN – so again, yes.
    Check the stills evidence online, check the dates and deadline for paying up etc, and act accordingly from there.
    Good luck!

  276. Steph says:

    Hi all,

    I have recently received a PCN for entering and stopping in a yellow box near kingsbury circle.

    I just wanted some advice on whether I have any grounds to contest this on.

    Maybe the fact that the yellow box doesn’t reach the curb?

    please see the footage at the link below:

    http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=c977f84d32d9bef75bfa2253754416aa0cd4cfee

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  278. Billybobbigears says:

    In late 2011 I received a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) for ‘entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited’. This was at the junction of Chelsea Embankment and Royal Hospital Road in London – camera operator number RCN/045. I eventually got clobbered £195 for firstly unsuccessfully rejecting the PCN and then failing to get my appeal together within the strict time limit.

    This box junction does not comply with Diagram 1043 or 1044 of Schedule 6 to Part I of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 but apparently has been specially authorised by the Secretary of State for Transport. This is even though its non-compliant layout cannot benefit traffic flow.

    I made a Freedom Of Information (FOI) request to Transport for London (TfL) for the number of PCNs issued concerning this box junction. I was told 11,923 since enforcement commenced in September 2004. I did not believe that this figure was a true reflection of how this camera was being operated. I made a subsequent FOI request at the end of 2012 (one year after my first FOI request) and the number of PCNs issued since September 2004 was now 17,979 – just over 6,000 for the year.

    If all these unlucky motorists immediately paid the reduced charge of £65, this would still bring in £394,225 for TfL in one year for this one box junction alone. I imagine that this collection figure is substantially higher as many busy motorists will fall foul of the strict TfL enforcement process and end up paying the full £130.

    I think this amply demonstrates the ethos of Money Box Junction where TfL are happy to encourage and assist the prosecution of hapless motorists using invented road markings not found elsewhere. Unfortunately, during my correspondence, I was told that amendments to the regulations came into force in 2012 which provide more flexibility for authorities on the layout of these road markings and where they can be used.

  279. Farah says:

    Hi I was Ealing broadway the junction from Uxbridge road and south road. There was a bus in front of me and traffic was flowing there was no way if knowing I would not make it past the junction onto the main area of the road. The bus made it but I was directly behind it just about to go over the exit to the yellow box. There were temporary traffic lights at Herbert road junction coming up which is why not as many card were able to go across. Please help me. The I ly reason I couldn’t go was because the flowing traffic stopped all of a sudden n there was no where I could go. Even when the lights changed the traffic that was going in the opposite direction was fine. Jut the one that was to turn left into Uxbridge road towards Herbert street couldn’t and that was because it wasn’t moving forward. Please help! 15/06/2013

  280. Monika says:

    Hi

    Sadly, I just received PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. It was Green Lane/Turnpike Lane Junction N15.
    I will challenge it for sure but I need some help.
    First at all the PCN does not say what is the code of contravention. I guess it should be 31 ? Is just written: entering and stopping when in a box junction when prohibited.
    When I entered the junction the flow was constant and there was no sign of interruption. I could see that I can make my way out of the junction smoothly. But then the flow stopped unexpected. My vehicle, according to photos, was on the box junction for 16 sec. I don’t remember stopping there, I just remember very slow movement. I was not restricting or stopping the flow of the traffic in any way. I was driving along the bus very slowly
    There is three lines before the junction and then the line squeezing into one after the traffic light, which is not very visible, especially that in the area is a bus station. I was trying to be kind and let the bus driver to get in front of me. I slowed down and now I am getting punished for that.
    Could you tell me please how the representation should look like. Thanks in advance

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  282. Natasha says:

    I have received a PCN for having the rear of my vehicle in a yellow box junction. In Waltham Forest. I have viewed the footage and I appear to be in the box for five seconds.
    Can you help me appeal please
    Kind Regards
    Natasha

  283. Faye Michel says:

    Hi,
    I received a PCn for stopping in a yellow box. The photo had no time differences on it, so I asked for video footage. It shows entering the box following the car in front, the lights had only just gone green, traffic was flowing & suddenly stops as I’m in the box, I’m there for 5 seconds exactly & then it continues, the lights hadn’t changed, not blocking anyone & it was 5 seconds! Surely they can’t expect me to pay for that?

    • David Pesto says:

      the contravention is entering a box junction when it is not clear. it doesn’t matter that the traffic was flowing, or that you were following the car in front, or that the light had just gone green. you should have waited until the car in front had cleared th box before you entered. however, because you were only stationary for 5 seconds, they may let you off on this occasion as a courtesy, but they don’t have to at all. bear this in mind when approaching box junctions in future.

  284. maxclinpsy says:

    the contravention is entering a box junction when it is not clear. it doesn’t matter that the traffic was flowing, or that you were following the car in front, or that the light had just gone green. you should have waited until the car in front had cleared th box before you entered. however, because you were only stationary for 5 seconds, they may let you off on this occasion as a courtesy, but they don’t have to at all. bear this in mind when approaching box junctions in future.

  285. ava mondal says:

    My dad has cancer and they photographed his car partially in a box junction can he appeal?

  286. Vicky says:

    Hi,
    I’ve had a PCN for stopping in a yellow box junction. There was a demonstration that day causing enormous delays due to road closures. I was actually moving very slowly, having waited a few minutes and not being able to cross the box as another stream of traffic was pushing in. I’m sure at no point was I stationary.
    The photo they have sent does not show the box lines clearly – in fact the only line showing could be the centre white line and also clearly shows my break lights are off as I am moving.
    Should I request to see video or simply challenge the appeal with the above info?
    Many thanks
    Vicky

  287. Siva Selva says:

    I need your help:
    Got a box junction fine (Kings Road Earls court) I came out from off road turning right into a box junction. Traffic on the main road is heavy cars waiting on bothside. The best option I have get my car into the box junction to get into the main road.
    I can send you letter I received from Fulham Hammersmith council.

  288. Julia says:

    Hi,

    My boyfriend has just received an email from his work stating they have paid off four junction box fines for him (and charging him an extra 35 pounds per ticket on top of that). Today is the 22nd of Novemeber and the tickets were issued mid October. Is there anyway we can contest a ticket which has already been paid by the company. He is driving a company car and so the tickets go straight to the company. The total cost is approx 400 pounds.

    do you have any advise?

    Thanks

  289. Paul Fallows says:

    Success!

    I have had my PCN turned over from Hammersmith & Fulham Council for entering the Talgarth roundabout yellow box junction.

    Thanks to this blog I added in some information to support my representations and after 7 months of waiting for a reply they finally and sensibly decided to proceed no further.

    I have enclosed the letter I used and hopefully people can use it to structure their representations.

    Many Thanks

    LBHF Parkings Services
    PO Box 4666
    Worthing
    BN11 9FY

    11th July 2013

    RE: Representations – Box Junction Entry Talgarth Road

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    1. Unknown to me at the time of the penalty, obscured by the A4 flyover, round a bend and passed the range of the CCTV footage is a pedestrian crossing combined with traffic lights.
    This pedestrian crossing cannot be seen from the very first traffic light intersection from where you see my vehicle entre the CCTV footage on Butterwick and impossible to predict, especially behind a large council truck.
    The very position of the yellow box and the phase of the traffic lights (see point 2) which, are not synced well to the Butterwick lights and pedestrian crossing on Talgarth Road roundabout/Fulham Palace Road, do not allow for generous flow of traffic causing vehicles to queue and become trapped in the yellow box. All beyond visible avoidance.

    Secondly, immediately passed this crossing, two lanes of Talagarth Road and Fulham Palace Road merge into one lane. What the CCTV footage doesn’t show is a build up of traffic due to the merging of the two lanes and some cars changing lanes. Also, there where pedestrians crossing at the time causing traffic to slow and stop.

    2. There are no warning signs that there is a camera at this junction. By law speed cameras have to have sign warning drivers of a camera. To my recollection there is no sign suggesting that a motorist will be fined. Instead there is a cleverly concealed camera with an operator.

    3. In the case of the phase of the pedestrian crossing lights on Talgarth Road, I want to know if because of the Olympics whether the phase of the lights have been changed and not put back to there original setting phase. The phase is too short to allow traffic to flow across Talgarth Roundabout and across the crossing easily, especially with two lanes merging into one shortly after it.

    In the regulations it states that:

    “No person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles”

    It is due to this above statement and the points made above that I serve representation.
    The poor design of this junction however makes it very difficult for motorists to enter the junction without the risk of a technical infraction of the rules. If the Council have an interest in helping motorists not to be caught unawares by this, the junction needs to be reviewed and improved. From what I can see and the research I have done this camera brings in many hundreds of thousands a year revenue for the council. With simple changes the charging of motorists could be avoided.

    I therefore wish to request under the Freedom of Information Act:

    • How many penalty charges had been issued in the yellow box junction during the period of the year: 27th July 2012 through to 12th August 2012 & the amount of money generated in this period?

    • Please confirm that the H&F Council have a camera operator dedicated to this junction and please comment on how many of the other junctions listed below have operators viewing them on a permanent or semi-permanent basis?

    • Does H&F Council have any plans to improve the junction, or are they happy collecting this sizeable revenue stream?

    I feel very strongly that the issuing of this PCN is unfair and unwarranted and more importantly not legal. Had I had an opportunity to avoid stopping in the box I would, but it is impossible to predict the flow of traffic at busy times and designed for motorists to be caught and fined.

  290. slsh1 says:

    Congratulations on your success and for sharing this very useful info with us. Much appreciated.

  291. N Vaughan says:

    Paul Fallows, did they answer your questions too?

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  293. M H Sumra says:

    Hello

    Just need some of your advice please. I have got a PCN with the “Date of the Notice on 15/02/2014″. The actual offence was committed on 9/12/2013. So this means I got the PCN after more than 2 months. Now the story is at the time of the offence the car was still registered with the dealer, so the council must have contacted them first and the dealer must have given my details as the owner of the car at the time of the offence. So considering this, is the PCN still valid if I got the notice after 2 months.

    The other thing is they have sent the PCN with the wrong name. i.e. my name is Mohammed Hanif Sumra and the PCN is addressed in the name of S A Mohammed. So does this mistake make the PCN valid, or do I send it back saying no such person leaves at this address.

    Thanks in advance

  294. Louise Hooley says:

    Hi I received a fine as I was pictured in a yellow box. It was in Bromley, Kent, where they have so many road works atm its hard to judge traffic. As im a new driver i am also still nervous driving. I was stuck behind a truck and the traffic was moving so when I thought there was reasonable space to move across the yellow box I did so but the truck stopped and I was stuck with my back wheels in the box for 14 seconds. The traffic was moving but obviously slowly. Do I stand a chance at appealing? Ive been rejected once already.
    Many thanks

    Louise

  295. Grant Banks says:

    Hi there,
    I have just recieved a pcn for supposedly stopping in a box junction.
    Firstly, the photo they have shown me, the nose of my vehicle is slightly over the box junction. Secondly, a traffic light is blocking where my wheels are situated. I also usually keep my wheels rolling very slowly if in a box junction accidentally. Maybe you can help, by letting me know ifi have a case.
    Many thanks

  296. Mo says:

    Hi
    I was recently blocked in a box junction but the traffic lights were not working. Should I expect a fine? My exit was clear though.

  297. Adam says:

    HI, my name is Adam I searched internet sevices , and found your page- Help Me! | Money Box Junction,Useful info. Lucky me I found your web site accidentally, and I am stunned why this twist of fate did not took place in advance!

  298. Richard says:

    Hi I’m Richard,
    I have been given a ticket from the local council for parking on yellow hatch marking (it’s a triangle at the end of parking bays with the diagonal hatch markings in it) to my knowledge these hatch markings are only legal for box junctions am I correct?
    Also the councils own website clearly shows that the area in which i went to park was designated for my type of vehicle yet there were no designated bays, to my knowledge this would also stand up against the ticket as they are advertising one thing and enforcing another?
    On the third grounds too the parking area was full (this I know will not stand up) however the area I was parked in was small enough for my bike but not a car.

  299. George Dowsett says:

    Hi my name is George, I have a PCN issued by a camera car with different dates of posting and date of offence. Is the PCN valid with this error?

    • Richard says:

      Schedule
      2. A regulation 10 penalty charge notice, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(4) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, must state—

      (a) the date of the notice, which must be the date on which it is posted;

      (b) the matters specified in paragraphs 1(b), (c), (d), (f) and (i);

      (c) the grounds on which the enforcement authority believes that a penalty charge is payable;

      (d) that the penalty charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;

      (e) that if the penalty charge is paid not later than the applicable date, the penalty charge will be reduced by the amount of any applicable discount;

      (f) that if after the last day of the period referred to in subparagraph (d)—

      (i) no representations have been made in accordance with regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations; and

      (ii) the penalty charge has not been paid,
      the enforcement authority may increase the penalty charge by the amount of any applicable surcharge and take steps to enforce payment of the charge as so increased;

      (g) the amount of the increased penalty charge; and

      (h) that the penalty charge notice is being served by post for whichever of the following reasons applies—

      (i) that the penalty charge notice is being served by post on the basis of a record produced by an approved device;

      (ii) that it is being so served, because a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice by affixing it to the vehicle or giving it to the person in charge of the vehicle but was prevented from doing so by some person; or

      (iii) that it is being so served because a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9, but the vehicle was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9.

      3. In paragraph 2 for the purposes of subparagraph (e) the “applicable date” is—

      (a) in the case of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) (on the basis of a record produced by an approved device), the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which the notice was served;

      (b) in any other case, the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with that date.

      Found this on another helpful site. Hope it helps.

  300. Richard says:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3483/schedule/made

    here’s the website where the regulations are. You can find most rules etc there (just need to know exactly what it is you are looking for)

  301. Annie shaw says:

    Is
    If you get a letter about a. Identalkygetting stuck in one with a fine do you getany points on your licence ?
    also another one for ring in a bus lane
    First time driving in London could cost my family’s sharif so
    Thanks

  302. osa thomas says:

    hi i just got a PCN contravention code 31 to pay 130 pounds or pay 195 pounds at a later date. It occured at in Lewisham rd/Blackheath hill/Greenwich South ST/ Blackheath rd. The operator camera was RNC 126. I was sent pictures of my vehicle in the box. Please how do i fight this is there anyone with knowledge to see if this box violation is enforceable . please advise

  303. Ashley Lewis says:

    Hello. I believe i may have a good case for you to look at. I have received a PCN for as they put it ‘allegedly entering and stopping in a box junction’.
    The place in question is an extremely busy junction and the box grid is situated between two sets of traffic lights where the first set of lights go green and the lights no more than 30 meters in front stay red. To put it simply unless you have used the junction before you would not know that the 2nd set of lights stay red and put you at risk of stopping inside the box junction. To make matters more confusing for the motorist, the 2nd set of lights change to green around 5-10 seconds later.
    The pcn i have received is for stopping on the edge of the box grid for around 5-10 seconds.
    After viewing the cctv evidence it simply seems as if there is someone waiting for the the unsuspecting motorist to move through the 1st green light, not knowing the 2nd lights are still red for a few seconds.
    I feel i have good grounds for appeal but know from previous experience it will be rejected.
    I would appreciate it if you could take a look at my case for me please.

    Kind Regards,

    Ashley Lewis

  304. Hi. I wonder if you can help me. I have been sent a PCN by Camden council for being stuck in a yellow box junction on Shaftesbury Avenue on 27/09/2014 at 23.57. There was a bus in front of me and traffic was heavy so I made the fatal mistake of crossing. Upon realising I wasn’t going to be able to exit I decided to change lanes as the other lane was free which would have allowed me to exit the box. Unfortunately I had to wait for a van to pass me and then another driver two cars behind pulled out of the lane and into the lane I was driving into, ignored my indicator and passed me, taking the space I would have had clear of the yellow box. I did challenge the PCN which they rejected. I understand that the council can’t do anything if you are still moving at 1mph which makes me wonder if I had pulled out not allowing the car to pass me and they had gone into the back of my car, would they still charge me for being in a yellow box? Surely, that would have caused more of a disruption to the traffic but i’m pretty sure they wouldn’t charge me for being stationary if i’d been involved in an accident in which case, what else was I supposed to do? The only reason I was in London was perform a gig on Denmark Street which turns out didn’t even pay and I couldn’t find any parking spaces so had to drive around to find one. I don’t even know where on Shaftesbury Avenue this is!

    I would appreciate any help.

    Kind regards

    Ryan McCaffrey

  305. Dave says:

    Dear Ryan McCaffrey,

    The contravention is to enter the box without a clear exit. What happens after that is irrelevant, as is your ridiculous speculation about wanting to cause an accident to avoid a penalty?!

    You entered the box without a clear exit ahead, and therefore the council have rightly rejected your appeal. I suggest you pay up and learn from this mistake so as to avoid future penalties. Shame about the gig though.

  306. BOB says:

    Dear Ryan,

    I have dealt with this both from the enforcement side and also having successfully contested such PCNs. On one occasion I got a county court order against a council over a box junction. I hope the points below help you.

    First of all there is no moral dimension here, and there is no reason you have to accept this as an expensive lesson learned. It is a game betwen you and the council – fairness almost never comes into it.

    Second – be wary of identifying yourself online since these sites are often monitored by interested parties.

    Third – assuming you with to pursue the matter at PATAS then yu need to get your arguments together in a persuasive manner.

    If you go to the PATAS website and find the results pages – you can filter for successful appeals to box junctions, that particular council and even that particular box junction. From the brief explanation you gave it appears that an appeal may be successful if presented properly. Your exit space was stolen by other vehicles but was clear when you entered.

    If you google that box junction you will find a number of helpful sites such as Pepipoo where this problem has occured before.

    Check the timescale on the PCN. The date you give is just before midnight on 27th Sept. Did the PCN get sent in time?

    If you are going to PATAS then the council will send you the video and their evidence. Check the dates, vehicle and location in the written evidence and video. I had one from Harrow where their date was wrong, the car was wrong and the video was of a street three miles away!

    • Ryan says:

      Thanks Bob You’ve been very helpful. Dave – you appear to have missed my point – it would be completely illogical for me to cause an accident, yet it appears to me that the council using CCTV to target induviduals im central London turns driving into some sort of rather dangerous game of musical chairs actually encouraging people to take more risks and putting other people in danger by racing to get out of yellow box in order to avoid being ‘caught’ out. There certainly is no moral dimension here at all Bob!

      • Ryan says:

        I’ve looked up the PATAS website – there are only 4 key cases which were all rejected, one because the car had made no effort to use an alternative exit, e.g. another lane whereas in my video it clearly shows I made such an attempt. I registered for Pepipoo but can’t see any way that I can post a topic.

  307. BOB says:

    Hello Ryan,

    Once registered log in. Go to ‘Fightback Forums’ and then work down the list to ‘Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices’.

    At the bottom of this page is ‘New topic’ That’s how you post.

    If I see your post I will PM you. Else you can rely on the expert opinion there. As above, be careful who does contact you via PM. Pepipoo. Anyone who has posted a few times giving advice is probably OK.

  308. Ryan says:

    ok – got it – i would like to post the video but sceptical about posting it as you mentioned be careful of identifying yourself and the video has the case number and my vehicle reg

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