Southall (Ealing) Box Junctions

Ealing LogoIn response to the numerous requests I have received for appeal documents I have decided to publish them here on the site. This information relates to South Road/St Joseph’s Drive, South Road/Cambridge Road and High Street/Avenue Road. There is a box junction at South Road/Hamilton Road but I have not heard of anyone getting a ticket there recently.

[28th Sept 2008 – The appeal documents have been updated to reflect recent wins at PATAS]

Please note that the appeal procedure is in two stages:

1. After you receive the PCN you fill in the reverse side and send it back (but remember to keep a copy). Tick the box that says something like “The contravention did not occur.” Then write the reasons as “This box junction is not as prescribed by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Unless it has been authorised by the Secretary of State for Transport it is unenforceable.

2. Ealing will most likely send you a Notice of Rejection stating lots of reasons why they think they are in the right. Ignore it – it is rubbish. Fill in the PATAS form as follows:

Boxes 1 & 2 : With your personal details.

Box 3 : It’s up to you whether you opt for a postal or personal hearing. A personal hearing shows you are serious.

Box 4 : Tick “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur”.

Box 5 : Write “See attached documents”

Download one of the following MS Word documents and fill in your details on the first page. Print it off and send it with the appeal form to PATAS.

PATAS appeal for South Road/St Joseph’s Drive

PATAS appeal for South Road and Cambridge Road

PATAS appeal for High Street/Avenue Road

Any queries, please leave a message below.

Update 28th Sept 2008

These junctions are still unlawful. Note that it does not matter whether your vehicle was partly or wholly in the box you can still appeal. These boxes have no legal status. They are simply yellow graffiti on the public highway.


94 Responses to Southall (Ealing) Box Junctions

  1. Irfan Younas says:


    Thanks so much for this – much appreciated. Just wanted to confirm one thing – does it matter that my initial appeal to the council didn’t include the blurb about being compliant with the General Directions 2002? i.e. Are you allowed to change the basis for your appeal when you go to the PATAS appeal hearing?

    Would appreciate if you could let me know as soon as possible. Many Thanks

  2. Katarina says:


    my husband works as a delivery driver and has just received PCN (box junction) from his company. THis is a bit complicated as the company he works for hires cars from other company – to which the PCN was sent initially, then they sent it to my husband´s company, which means he now has only got 2 days to pay before the end of period 14 days.
    The problem is:
    1. the picture on PCN does not show my husband entering box junction. His vehicle is before it.
    2. if the PCN is not made out on his name, but rather company name, does he need to pay the charge?

    I would really appreciate your help. Thank you

  3. Parvinder Singh says:

    I receive a penalty charge notice for South road and St.joseph drive in southall. I wrote a letter to Ealing council explaining what happen and they have refuced my appeal. According to them I have entered in junction when the exit was not clear. My point is it was a moving traffic and the traffic lights were green. I cross more than 90% of the junction and the front car stop suddenly without any reason. I left with no other choice rather than stop my vehicle. Can you please advise how I can win this case or should I pay this notice.
    I personally feel its not fair. I stopped my vehicle only for 2 seconds. Why I should be penalised for the error made by the vehicle in front of me.
    Please advice.

    • Derek says:

      I know it is a bit late but I have found a reason that the Herbert road/ Broadway. box junction is not compliant with the 2002 regulations on the grounds that it merges with cycle lane. I am receiving all sorts of reasons why they consider that the box junction is compliant but it is all rubbish. If someone out there is a cyclist who can remember whether the cycle lane went across the junction pre 1999. then we have won the case,

      Derek Harris

  4. rob says:

    Do you have any information on the box junction at herbert road & the broadway in southall? It looks to me like it doesn’t comply but it’s very hard to find anything confirming this.

    Any advce would be great. Thanks.

    • John says:

      Hi Rob – re box junction at herbert road – did you find out if it is compliant ?

    • pravin shah says:

      Rob did you find out if the box at this junction is legal?

      • jigar says:

        I have been issued a pcn at herbert road and i have requested a video footage but learning more it seems that its not compliant in first place if i were to go with pictures shown on the other link and hence what do i do next?

        other problem i have is because i did not change my car address, tickets went to old addresses until now and never reached me until recently when i changed the address and straight away i recieved the collect services letter and I am completely unaware about what happened as its now 6 months old.

        any guidance will help as amount is £198.44 and i have not even got a copy of the ticket as it probably went to old address.

        many thanks in anticipation.

  5. Mohamed says:

    I have recieved pcn yellow box junction South road /st josephs drive on 26/05/08
    i havent appealed yet all i want to know as this pcn pictures looks one picture shows the last tyre of the car on yellow box that means 75% of the car is clear of the box and the next picture shows numper plate of the car , i think this is choke i want to appeal tommorow any help please.

  6. ghazala says:

    I too recvd pcn for yellow box junction south rd/st joseph rd and im going to contest using your advice.but i receivd another pcn for the same day for having 2 wheels on st georges ave,southall!.they have sent picture of me parkd in front of looks like closd garage door picking up my 14 year old son.also the pavement seems quite low.i do recall giving way to a truck which was coming from the main rd.i had no choice but to go slightly on the pavment.any advice how i can appeal.incidently i travelld from essex to take my father out for birthday treat who recently sufferd a stroke.ended up with 2 pcn.a very expensive treat and i wil not be going to southall in a hurry!

  7. ninja says:

    Just received the rejection notice of rejection from Ealing council – on the PATAS form the date in the official use box has been completed incorrectly ie the wrong date. Is this enough for them to cancel the charge or will they just reset /resend a new form.

  8. Mark says:

    I have just received today a PCN for the High Street/Avenue Road box junction. I intend to appeal it following advice from here. is this box still illegal? Also one reason i was stop in the box is because some pratt pulled out in front of me forcing me to stop hard. leaving me one inch behind him in the box.


  9. Jafar Jawid says:

    do you know anything about The Broadway/Herbert Road in Shouthall??? i got a notice from them, it shows my car in the box is there anyway i can appeal and if yes how can i do it…. i would be grateful if i get some help…..



  10. joseph says:

    payed the £60 for stopping in box junction at drayton park n.5. sent fine off in march council didnt cash cheque. in the mean time i changed my account last month, now council have tried to cash the cheque 3 months later the account has been closed and they want me to send another cheque. how do i stand

  11. Nasir says:


    I have received a PCN for the box junction in South Rd/St. Joseph’s Drive. I have decided to appeal based on your advice on your website. But I have 2 queries before I go down the appeals route.

    1) My vehicle is a Ford Van, does that make any difference?

    2) Unlike many users of your website who had received the PCN for not being able to clear the junction box at the finishing end, my contravention is that I have just about leaped, only the front tyre and not an inch more, into the junction box and stopped.

    Will this create be an issue if I appeal against the PCN. I realise that only half the box should be there where the Ealing council has gotten a full box, but what worries me is that even if they had half the junction box, the front tyres of the Van would still be in the junction box.

    I will wait for your reply.

    Thanks for all the info and guidance on your website.

  12. Istiak says:

    I received a fine and i payed it a year ago, can i claim that back.

  13. Shoukia says:

    Thank you for the documents above, I received two Charge Certificates for South Rd/Cambridge Rd in May for a contrvention which happened in March, I appealed requested photographic evidence and informed them the the first penalty notices did not arrive at my address. they replyed 2 months later saying I must wait for the order of recovery from the court before I can appeal or pay £180. So I will wait and then appeal with the advice above. I let you know what happens.

    Thank for the webiste very informative, so fingers crossed…

  14. Johnny says:

    Hi Box Clever

    My Dad has received a PCN with a picture of his alleged offence.

    On investigation, whilst he probably does stop in the box, they are saying that the photo is at 1 location, when it clearly is not, it is at another about half a mile away. I will post the exact details when I get time.

    Have you ever come across this scenario? And would you say he has a chance of getting off? I would say that there evidence is flawed and unreliable?

    Would appreciate anyones opinion or similar experiences?


  15. Dr.Satish Saxena says:

    PCN-EA 33653245 Ealing St.Joseph’ Drive / South Road , Southall
    Date of Contravention—-15/07/2008

    Car: Y 296 SLD is registered in my name.
    My wife was the driver on that day accompanied by two passengers.
    On 04/08/2008, I went to the above site with my wife,and two other people and took many photographs. While we were there ,we were able to get photographs showing many motorist getting trapped unfairly in that Box Junction.
    Please advice
    1. As myself being the registered keeper of the car , do I have to appeal or my wife ?
    2. Do I send the photographs or not with the PCN or PATAS ?
    3. Or I take the photographs with me at the time of hearing.

    N.B. On 01/08/2008 I requested via E Mail and Telephone to send me more photographs, which I have not received till today.


  16. Sushant says:

    I got a ticket for being in Yellow junction box at South road and Cambridge Road junction.

    The guy moving left suddenly pulled up to avoid the Bus Lane ahead.
    I want to contest this based on the advice on this website.
    Thanks for giving detailed information on this.
    The car photograph were taken from the back as well. It doesn’t show the driver.

    I want to know, if this appeal still valid and no rules have been modified since this information was published.

    Kindlt let me know.
    Thanks in advance.


  17. sanjai says:

    One junction Box gone.
    hopefully rest will be gone as well.

  18. WAZ says:

    Hi, I have also appealed against a PCN for entering and stopping the yellow box junction at south road/st joseph’s drive. In the rejection letter i recieved from Ealing council, their ground for rejection is that my vehicle (rear wheels) were stationary for a minimum of 1 second! even though my vechicle was moving! they go on to say that there is no minimum allowed time for a vehicle to be stationary in a box junction when crossing directly across.

    Could anyone tell me if i should include this in my PATAS? Also i want to find out if
    any changes have been made to the rules, road marking etc as i will be sending the PATAS appeal document that has been posted in this blog and want to find out if it can still be used to appeal?



  19. Arif Hayat says:

    Your website is very valueable, I have same question as previously asked- does it matter that my initial appeal to the council didn’t include the blurb about being compliant with the General Directions 2002? i.e. Are you allowed to change the basis for your appeal when you go to the PATAS appeal hearing? Would you consider publishing the replies to the questions like FAQ’s Thanks

  20. Singh says:

    I have just been hit with a fine today. I think it would be a good idea to put a large petition to the relevant authorities in which we should all list our grievances.

    I hope we can all do this.

    Wish everyone luck with their appeals. Ealing C seem so useless!

  21. Etienne says:

    Just recieved a fine for that box on South Road/St Joseph. I cannot believe that Ealing use that as a cash cow! I will appeal…nobody is ever using this St Joseph street! Box juction should only be located in relevant areas not in the middle of nowhere.

  22. Sara says:

    I was just wondering how many of you have won your appeals? I am just about to send off my appeal for the Cambridge Road fine I have. Great website, thanks.

  23. Chris Green says:

    PCN issued in Southall – Broadway/South Road junction

    I have just received a PCN with pics from Ealing Council showing my car being in the Yellow Junction box. Not sure of the legality of the box, but the pics show ONLY the front tyres n the junction box, which is sometimes unavoidable given that it is a traffic light and slow moving traffic in the evening. Can someone please please advise how I appeal this as this is the first such PCN I have received and not sure how to respond.


  24. Mrs. Kaur says:

    PCN Southall, South Road and Cambridge Road.
    – Thank you, Thank You Sir… for the excellent advice. It worked!
    Council insisted the offence occurred, went for Post Hearing..based on draft letters on this site. Stuck with it – and now they have to Pay me back, 120 pounds!

    Keep up the good work.

    Ps. Everyone, don’t give in. The Adjudicator ruled in my favour, refererng to another case where a Bus had been fined! The Box at South Road and Cambridge Road – is NOT compliant to the Traffic Regulations.

  25. ninja says:

    Mrs Kaur.
    I sent in 2 Patas forms completed as described above for the same South Road/Cambridge Rd junction and both require me to attend 2 Appeal Hearings on 2 separate dates (More waste on tax payers money) Please advise what happens at these hearings? Was there much needed to argue your case or did you just repeat what was sent in on the Patas appeal form??

  26. Dawn says:

    Re: PCN South Road / Cambridge Road

    Just wanted to say thank you very much. Have received letter from Patas this morning allowing the appeal after using your documentation.

    Hearing for Broadway / Herbert Road is due to go the list next week so just need to wait for that one now.

    Thanks again

    • Yaz says:

      Hi Dawn, can you let me know the outcome of your hearing broadyway/herbert rd. Just got a ticket and am wondering if’s it’s worth contesting as only have a week left to do it in.


    • Sue says:

      What happened with the hearing for Broadway / Herbert road? I am so upset at getting a PCN for the vehicle in front of me stopping suddenly which meant I was forced to stop.
      Is there any point in appealing?



  27. Khan says:

    Hi guys
    Keep the good work doing. May I ask Mrs. Kaur to post her PCN number on this website so that it can be referred to in fresh appeals regarding the South Road and Cambridge Road junction. May I ask the same from Ninja and Dawn once their cases her heard and hopefully their appeals upheld.
    If adjudicator gave his/her verdict, say in Mrs. Kaur case, that the South Road and Cambridge Road box is not compliant to Traffic Regulation, why the council continues penalising people after that verdict. Are they not knowingly charge people illegally and hence they can be sued in court. Thanks

  28. Gary Wilson says:


    My initial appeal was also based on asking for video evidence at the same junction of South Rd and St Josephs drive, recieved no response for 10 months from Ealing council. Then Ealing wrote back saying my appeal was recieved after the charge certificate was issued. They gave me 14 days to pay, now they have just sent me order for recovery letter.

    Please advice how to appeal now that I have 21 days before bailiffs order to recover goods. I am not sure how to proceed after they say my initial appeal was recieved after 28 days period.

  29. ah says:

    A big thank you.

    I was issued a PCN for South Road/Cambridge Road. I appealed to Ealing council but they turned it down. I then appealed to PATAS using the draft letter on this site. They have cancelled the PCN. My request to all – dont let these councils make money by fooling innocent motorists.

  30. AS says:

    Congratulations to AH for having the PCN cancelled due the help of this site.

    Just a quick question for AH, did you appeal through post was it in person?

  31. ah says:

    I appealed through post.

  32. PT says:


    I received a PCN for box junction offence in South Road/Cambridge road at the end of August. I completed the reverse side of the PCN stating that the offence did not occur with details, not compliant to traffic sign regulations…

    This morning, I received my PCN back with no notice of rejection, cover letter or a PATAS form, just the original PCN that I had sent to them last week. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

  33. Lisa says:


    I’ve just received 2 PCN’s – one for South Road/st. Joseph’s Drive, Southall and one for South Road/Cambridge Road, Southall over a period of 3 days!! I agree with the other messages suggesting that this is being used as a cash cow exercise by Ealing Council and I refuse to be treated unfairly in this way. My ‘offences’ occurred due to the same reasons as others described – the first one due to the traffic lights changing suddenly after I’d committed to cross the junction and the second as a bus suddenly decided to stop. Will contest charge following your advice and will request to see footage. A quick question – is the advice still valid? Or have Ealing council managed to put a stop to this avenue? Your advice would be appreciated.

  34. ghazala says:


    I wrote on this website on 19 June stating that I got 2 PCN issued by Ealing council on 1st June 2008. one was for south Rd/St Josephs Drive. I followed this websites advice and today have been for appeal hearing. This was in Haymarket London SW1 and I live in Essex. So I nearly didn’t go for the hearing and last minute decided to attend. Well I’m glad to say that thanks to this website I won!!. The adjudicator has allowed the appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. I strongly believe that it makes a difference if you attend the hearing. The Ealing council stated that it is irrelevant whether the yellow box is compliant or not, the fact is I did enter the yellow box. I showed the adjudicator all that I had printed off this website and it paid off. He did state that previously the Ealing council had not argued this case and allowed the appeal but for some reason they went further this time. Anyway thanks to all you guys I’m one very happy lady today and I strongly advise you all not to give up

  35. ghazala says:


    In reply to Lisa 27 Sept. The advice is up to today is still valid unless the Ealing council get a dispensation according to the adjudicator. But do follow the advice given on this website and attend the hearing. Make sure you keep copies of everything and take along the print out of all the diagram that this website gives you. Good luck.

  36. Idd says:


    Great site…I also hope someone might be able to advise me.

    I’ve read through most posts, and it seems my problem may be a bit more complicated.

    I am a law abiding citizen and do not cause problems neither do I park inconsiderately or drive dangerously.

    The Broadway/Herbert Rd Junction Southall (3)

    I moved house a year and a half ago April 2007, Car tax was due in September 2007 having realised at the time that I had not updated my Drivers License Details; I did not receive a reminder for renewal of car tax. I then phoned DVLA and updated my drivers license details and assumed (a bad thing to do) that this would also reflect on my car registration.

    This year as September approached and my car tax was due I again did not receive a reminder, again this was because the car registration was still at my old address, my drivers licence was at current address. Just a bad slip up by me, how could I have not updated the Car Reg address. I phoned DVLA up and asked them why I had not received the Renewal Notice, I was looking forward to renewing it online, I mentioned that I had updated my drivers licence details, I was then told that its because I had not updated my V5 Registration Doc, I asked if they would update my details over the phone and was told, that I had to send the original document in with the new details on it, this is the only way that the Registration can be updated to avoid fraud I was told. I then went to the post office and bought a new tax disc and sent my v5 doc off to update my log book address registration.

    The house I was previously in was rented, and I met the landlord about two weeks ago and he told me that the house had been empty since I had left and that there had been a lot of mail, mostly junk, come through for me.

    He offered me the keys to go and check the letters. This was on 25th Sept. It was then that I had found the PCN for an offence on 24/03/08 with PCN dated 03/04/08, There was also another letter Charge Certificate for the same offence, Charge Certificate Dated 14/05/08

    There was still another letter
    Order for recovery – Unpaid Penalty Charge
    Dated 15/07/08
    Asking me to pay within 21 days
    File a statutory declaration on the enclosed form
    and have it signed by a commissioner for oaths.

    The only grounds on which a declaration can be made are:
    277: You did not receive the Penalty Charge Notice (for a traffic contravention)

    278: You made representations about PCN to the council of the London Borough of Ealing, within 28 days of service of the notice and did not receive a rejection notice

    279: You appealed to the parking & traffic Adjudicator against the councils decision to reject your representations, within 28 days of the service of the rejection notice but have had no response to your appeal.

    You must only select one of the above three grounds

    If you need more time to file your statutory declaration write immediately to the Traffic Enforcement Centre

    If you do nothing, your possessions may be removed and sold to pay this charge.

    I just opened the letters last night (2nd October) and was looking into it today, The 21 days for the Order for Recovery (Bailiffs) letter finished on 4th August

    Can anyone help?

  37. Graham says:


    I received two pcns within one minute of another – one at South Road/St Joseph’s Drive, one at South Road/Cambridge Road in April.

    The problem is, I moved house since then, and although I forwarded my post, I only received the second letter which stated both charges had been doubled, so the fee is now £360 in total. I never received the original PCN, so never had a chance to appeal.

    I wrote a letter as soon as I got this reminder, which has now been rejected stating it is too late to appeal and I should:
    i) Pay up
    ii) Wait until an order has been made against me at the County Court. I then have 21 days to file a Statutory Declaration using the form enclosed with the notice (which I don’t have!!!)

    Should I now submit the PATAS claim, or do I need to wait until the order has been sent? Also, does it matter that I didn’t respond to the original PCN (as I never received it)?

    Look forward to hearing from you

  38. Rod S says:

    My employer has now received two PCNs from my recent visit to Southall.

    The truck they allocate for this journey is a full sized artic; simple observation of the photos show that distance from the edge of the box to the traffic lights at High St/Avenue Road is insufficient to accomodate the whole truck, so unless I stop short of the box/zigzag combination I must necessarily wait at the lights/zebra? while part of the vehicle is on the (illegally marked) box.
    How could anyone driving such vehicles (or even big buses) and avoid penalty?

    The other PCN is for Broadway/Herbert Road, cars are shown waiting (or moving?) beyond the end of box. Were they there when I entered the (legal?) box junction.

    My normal ploy in such circumstances is to creep forwards extremely slowly, thus avoiding the actual stop that causes the offence. It is also possible that the cars shown at both box junctions may well have turned into my path as I approached the box?
    I am happy to view the video footage at Ealing but my employer just wants the payment references so they can file the whole matter in the bin!

    I will encourage my employer to challenge the PCNs (they own the vehicle and also had the notice served etc.) but at present they see no reason to bother wasting time on them when they can pressure me into paying the fines for them!

    Surely Ealing Council are commiting an offence in issuing these PCNs.

    My problem is that the company are happy to dump the PCNs on drivers without challenging them in any way and are now expecting me to send off £120 by Monday without raising any objection.
    I have now found out that we receive these on a regular basis and don’t challenge any of them. What hope have we got?

  39. Manish Jain says:

    I also received a ticket for the High Road T Junction, i have followed the advice of this website and returned the ticket denying the charge on the grounds of ‘Illegal Box Junction’. Will now wait for their response.

    What surprises me is though there have been several of us caught for the same issue and the authorities have been waiving some of us on the grounds given by Neils website, then why does this not stop? will they just keep milking money from public?
    thats really depressing!!!

  40. tony says:

    do ealing issue ticket’s 2 driver’s who r forced 2 stop in box junction by driver’s who do not give way from the left, when ur turning right from HERBERT ROAD on 2 the BROADWAY in SOUTHALL. this heppend at 18:35 o0n a SUNDAY. “plz put ur Reply 2 this on on ur website 4 us all”.

  41. Richard Molyneux says:


    Molyneux -v- Ealing (Ref: 2080495046) Adjudicator Hugh Cooper

    I have appealed, and won (hooray!), against Ealing for a South Road/Cambridge Road ‘entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited’ contravention.

    I used the standard appeal letter, downloadable from this page, with additional information relevant to my particular case. PLEASE NOTE that near the start it says ‘Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2003 (TSRGD 2002)’ – that should be 2002 NOT 2003 (Ealing pointed that out in their letter to PATAS).

    Please DO add my case number to the letter if you are appealing against this junction. PATAS also cited appeal number 2080263889 of 13th August 2008 when Adjudicator Henry Michael Greenslade found that the road markings at this junction did not comply.

    PATAS wrote to Ealing in September giving them a chance to explain why they are still opposing appeals at this junction, they had 14 days to reply, over a month later they are still waiting!

    The contravention happened on Monday 18th FEBRUARY 2008 and I have received my Adjudicator’s Decision letter today, Saturday 25th OCTOBER 2008 – so don’t expect a quick resolution (though most of that time was correspondence with Ealing, I didn’t send off my appeal to PATAS until 31st July).

    Ealing seem to enjoy flouting the regulations, their video footage failed to show the junction’s exit when I entered it and they wouldn’t give me the name of the second officer (ie. not the CCTV operator) to confirm that this was an offence (both requirements).

    Clearly Ealing will continue to milk this cash cow until they are forced not to by the government, PATAS has no power whatsover (but then if we stopped appealing they’d be out of a job. Doh!).

    Good luck, don’t worry, don’t admit to anything just appeal, appeal, appeal!



  42. The Yoga Master says:

    We are pleased to report that we followed the advice on this website and won the appeal. At about 17:00 on the day before the hearing we had a call from the Case Manager that the Adjudicator “was minded to alloow the appeal”. Therefore, we did not need to attend the hearing, which saved us time and money.

  43. Chris says:

    Well, what can I say!

    A great big thank you for the inspiration to appeal the PCN I received for “entering and stopping” in the the South Road/St Josephs Drive Box junction. The outcome is that we have won and the Adjudicator has directed the London Borough of Ealing to cancel the PCN.

    Letter from PATAS received today, but the Contracvention date was 5th November 2007, so things have taken nearly a year to come to this conclusion. The grounds for accepting the appeal are the same as outlined by Richard Molyneux above on the 25th October.

    Thanks again.


  44. Iqbal Saleem says:

    Just another big thank you for your help to appeal the PCN which I received on Location : South road / Cambridge Road southall.

    All what is said on this site really works, one day before the court hearing, I receive a phone call stating that the adjudicator has taken judgement in my favour, the junction box does not comply with the Traffic Signs and regulations and General Directions 2003. ( as clearly stated in on your site)

  45. Richard Molyneux says:

    Good to hear of more successes, clearly PATAS have decided to stop wasting everyone’s time with hearings that are a foregone conclusion!

    Keep up the good work and keep those appeals going…


  46. Kate Rowland says:

    Just to say thank you for the appeal advice given on this site.

    We appealed against a pcn on High Street/Avenue Road, Southall on 21 May 2008. Our initial appeal to the council was rejected as expected but we then appealed to PATAS and received the postal verdict today in our favour.

    Thanks again


  47. david says:

    i also got caught out in this junction its an absolute joke, the shear length of the junction makes it so easy to get caught out, as i understand the idea of a yellow box is to keep the road clear & to keep the traffic moving, well you could almost land a plane in this junction, its like a big yellow spiders web so that the councill can pounce on any un suspecting motorist and suck the blood straight out of there wallet, i was wondering if there was any limit on how long a box could be for it to be a lagitimate money trap ?

  48. Sachuraj says:

    This website is great.
    However I received 2PCN for both junctions, South Road/St Joseph’s Drive, and South Road/Cambridge Road back in september.
    The problem is ive paid for them both, but now since I found out about this website, is it too late for me to appeal or try and get a refund???

    Can anyone please give me advice.

  49. John says:

    Just to say thanks for the advice on the St Joseph’s box junction. My appeal was successful after following the advice as written.

    I am now writing to the Council to tell them what I think of them!

  50. Skip says:

    Hi all, i work in Hayes and have received a PCN for the Avenue road / high st junction. Got stuck there when the traffic in front suddenly stopped and had some idiot right behind me, preventing me from reversing out of the box !

    Received it in August and paid it. Now that i have time i have put together a case with help from this site and info provided. Posting it today and will update when i get a response. From the looks of it, this box is meant to be a half box. Just such a shame that Councils have to drop to these levels to increase income, as if we don’t pay enough for council tax as it is !

    Will update when i get some news.

  51. Waz says:

    I had recieved a PCN a few months ago for the box junction at South Rd/St Joseph’s Drive, following the advice on this site, I appealed to PATAS and today I recieved a letter from Ealing Council aswell as the Adjudicator, informing me that the case was ruled in my favour and the penalty charge has been cancelled!

    I would like to say a very big Thankyou to this website for the advice and guidance given, keep up the good work!


  52. Sajila says:

    Hi, Thank you very much for this lovely site (THANK YOU) I was issued with a PCN in Oct for the box junction South Rd/StJoseph’s Drive and paid the charge within 14 days after finding out from your web site theses boxes are illegal i tried to appeal against it in Nov i got told that any PCN issued before 31 oct 2008 will not be refunded .
    please please come back to me and advice me what i can do.
    Can you please advice me what i can do to have the PCN refunded.

    thank you very much once again for this great site.

  53. Lisa says:


    I contacted the site in September 2008 about two PCNs received – Thanks Ghazala for responding with the advice I asked for! – and downloaded the appeal documents, filled out the appeal and sent it off. Still waiting to hear officially if it’s been successful (well done all those that have been!) – HOWEVER GOOD NEWS! Whilst driving through Southall today, the South Rd/St Joseph’s Drive AND the South Rd/Cambridge Rd junctions HAVE GONE!! The markings removed from the road!! The unfair and blatent cash cow of Ealing council has been stopped!

    Well done Money Box Junction!

  54. Chaudhry says:

    My car 2 tyres was on it while the front car stoopped, it happened today??? are these boxes still been enforced, please advice as I am worried 😦

  55. havva says:


    just received a PCN for herbert road, for apparently beng parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where restrictions are in force by CCTV.

    In the pictures my break light are clearly on. I had just left the car park and was probably sorting out my sat nav for journey home some 40 miles away. I may have even pulled over to let another vehichle pass, but I can see no yellow lines or anything other than the back of my car in the pictures.

    The 2 pictures taken are also 2 seconds apart, what if i had just slowed down and not actually stopped because genuinely i cannot remember.

    Having looked at this website I am loathed to give these money snatchers anything.

    Please let me know if this has happened on herbert road southall before.

  56. Barbro Julin says:


    We were “caught” and fined in the box junction High Street/Avenue road in Southhall 11th October.

    We appealed with the instructions on this web site,(Excellent) and have not heard anything back from the council since.

    I have now noticed the Yellow box junction at High Street/Avenue Road has gone (over-painted in black)!

    This is very good, and I just wanted to let you know.

    Does any one know if the council is still going to reject appeals?


  57. Richard Molyneux says:

    Hi guys (and gals)

    Good to see that Ealing has been blacking out their yellow box junctions (I’m sure they haven’t made them into ‘half’ boxes which would make sense and be enforceable).

    I doubt they’ve given any reason for their actions and have not admitted their mistake (and hence liability) in imposing all those fines. Now that would be a nice Christmas present, along with re-imbursing PCNs paid before 31st October and cancelling all those still outstanding 🙂

    Merry Christmas and a Peaceful (and PCN free!) New Year to you all.


  58. Richard Molyneux says:

    For those people who have paid fines, I’m afraid that the councils are taking the line that by paying the fine you have admitted your guilt and don’t deserve to have your fine repaid (according to a report I saw on BBC’s Breakfast programme of 29/05/08).

    Of course, in reality people paid the fines because they crazily assumed that councils wouldn’t falsely send out (un-enforceable) PCNs and they didn’t want to wait to have their fine doubled after the 14 day period (who would?).

    Personally, I hope that all those who were wrongly fined and paid up can club together to take the councils to court to reclaim their money – I was one of the lucky (!) ones who held out and appealed (and won) against Ealing Council.

    Good luck to you all


  59. Mark says:

    Hooray I won, mine was high st and avenue. see my post near the top dated 25th June. Ealing tried it on till the last. Patas agreed with me. can you believe this, they (Ealing) reckoned that the rules are just guidelines well if that’s the case then the highway code is a guideline. heck the whole of law is a guideline (sarcasm) And now Ealing have to paint the boxes out.

    personally I think Ealing and some of its officers should be done for fraud, there are plenty of witnesses against them. but I guess councils think they are above the law. I believe that this is a multi million pound fraud and people should be jailed.

    Thanks to this site for its help. well done.
    fight the thieves


  60. Aman says:


    Nice work! Ealing council have started to issue refunds for the unreasonable penalties. I am aware that they are giving refunds for all penalties issued after 30th October 2008.

    My traffic penalty was issued 4th August 08 (contravention date 26 July 08). Do you know if I am still entitled to a refund?

    Thanks you,


  61. Harminder Ghattaura says:


    I paid £60 after receiving a PCN on 9 April 2008 for entering the St Josephs Drive / South Road yellow box junction on 2 April 2008. I was unable to clear the yellow box as my exit was blocked by a double decker red bus.
    I have the original paperwork, obviously without the tear-off slip.
    Do you know if there is any possibility of obtaining a refund due to the ackowledged illegality of the yellow box junction?


  62. Mark says:

    Aman and Harminder

    All you can do is try, they will most probably say no. but you could always go down the if it was illegal then then it surely must be illegal then route.

    This website is genius


  63. Andy B says:


    Thanks for the help I have recieved from this website. Last July I was caught in the box junction in Southall. I have a company car and was not aware I had been caught on camera until the lease company wrote informing me they had paid the £60 fine and were charging me an additional £44 for administration. I appealed to ealing council using your wording above and I recieved the follwing notification last week.

    In regards to your below appeal, please be advised we have received
    notification from the council they will be refunding and cancelling all
    fines which were incurred at this location. They have advised a refund
    be processed by the end on January. Once we received the refund we will
    credit your account.

    A good result which was only achieved because of this web site.

    A Big thanks. Regards, Andy B

  64. Dev says:

    Hi, i would just like to say a big thank you for helping me with my appeal. I received a ticket because my car was in the south rd box junction for about 10 seconds!. I downloaded the various documents from this site and appealed the ticket. A few days before the hearing date Ealing Council wrote to me and said that they will not be contesting the appeal and the hearing was cancelled. Thank you

  65. Rich says:

    Hello 🙂
    I got a PCN for the South Rd/St Josephs yellow box back in March ’08 which I duly paid.
    After reading in the local press that there was a pending case to decide whether the yellow box was legal or not I thought I might get my money back – but heard nothing more.
    Today I phoned Ealing council and asked for an update.
    I was told that the ruling that the South Road yellow boxes were in fact illegal was made on June 20th 2008, and that because my ‘offence’ was committed before that date, the council “are not prepared to issue a refund”.
    I said that in my opinion the yellow boxes were illegal from the date of installation AND THEY ACTUALLY AGREED WITH ME!
    But still they keep my money – theft in my book!
    Is anyone else in this situation?

  66. Mark says:

    Answer to above question would be I guess, small claims court, pay your tenner or whatever it is nowadays and see what they say oh and if you do go this route claim admin costs etc. If people sue and win then they may change their minds. And if you do win then take it to the press.


  67. Jon Howell says:

    Do you have any appeal docs or info regarding enforceability of Herbert Rd / Broadway yellow box junction?

  68. Robbie says:


    Was just wondering if there was any info about the yellow box junction at Herbert Road/The Broadway in Southall. Got a PCN on Saturday. Have paid it but thinking now i shouldn’t have. Any info about this junction would be great.

  69. Mouses says:

    ~plse help me
    I got PCN on the yellow Box Junction at Greenford Road and Otter road UB6, I suspected the markings are not up to the Kerbs. they told me they have video evidence what can I do ? how can I challenge this?

    god bless you all

  70. pam says:

    I’ve just been issues a PCN by Ealing Council for a box junction violation. Photo supplied shows me with two front wheels just inside the box junction, waiting for the car in front to move out of the box junction and a car in the box junction turning into the box junction. I do not recall stopping at any time in any box junction except when turning right! This is at the Greenford rd/Otter Rd junction. Is this box junction legal? I know others in Ealing have been deemed “illegal”.
    In response to others using the site, I have appealed at least 3 cases involving parking, which I have successfully appealed and WON. I am fed up of Ealing Council targeting law abiding motorists – they cannot even target the law breakers, those who run through red lights and those that knock down young children on pedestrian crossings, or those that park on double yellow or red lines. The last one involved parking in a parking bay at Greenford station. Next to it was a marked loading bay, yet they gave me a ticket for parking correctly, and well within the alloted time! Things I have found out whilst appealing incorrectly issued PCN’s include: you can park in a loading bay, but you must commence loading within 3 minutes… (Shopping/passengers/deliveries- but this is not stipulated on the signs!)
    You can also drop people off by stopping on double yellow lines, as long as you do not get out of the car to open the passenger door for a disabled person.
    If a disabled bay is in a colour other than yellow, and you have mistaken it for a mother & toddler bay, then you can appeal as the signs are confusing and misleading.
    You are allowed 2-3 minutes over your parking ticket time, but you must move your car…even if you are heavily pregnant and struggling to load two other stubborn children & shopping whilst the warden looks at you and issues the ticket before your parking ticket has run out.
    You can park in front of a lowered driveway unless a car is parked in the drive. If your car is blocked in the police do nothing anyway.
    Greenford and Southall police stations are very unhelpful and lose complaints you make against them. They don’t prosecute hit and run drivers either. Even with witnesses. They do not view CCTV footage if a motorbike hits your car, and if a burglary is being carried out in front of your house (with burglar alarm)and you report it they cannot be bothered to come out, even if you get your neighbours to call them as well!!!
    We are paying tax for them to not do all of this as well!!!

  71. Alan says:

    Do you have any appeal docs or info regarding enforceability of Herbert Rd – Broadway yellow box junction in Southall please?

    I am proceeding with a PATAS appeal based on being blocked by a car enetering from the side road (Herbert Rd) and blocking my exit. The video evidence supports my view of the events but was rejected by the LBE. Any additional information on the junction would be a great help.


  72. Dave Allison says:

    Hi my wife & I were driving in seperate cars after a meeting. Both caught in the yellow box at The Broadway / Herbert Road, Southall. The traffic was slow moving on our direction of travel but grid locked on our opposite side. We entered the box junction thinking we were keeping the traffic flowing, we came to a stand still in the junction for 4 secounds and 8 secounds respectively. Common sense has to privail. How can we get out of this ? Please advise.

  73. John says:

    I am intending to appeal against a PCN for entering (just) the box at Herbert Road/Broadway when my exit suddenly became blocked. As I am not the only one in this situation can you advise if it is worth appealing ?

  74. John says:

    Can anyone advise me of the status of the Herbert Road junction box – I intend to appeal

  75. Steven says:

    I have to thank the website for its information and tell you about my own case. I used the information and letters provided as a helpful guide to appeal against a pcn I received relating to the box junction at Greenford Road / Otter Road.I received a penalty despite the car in front stopping suddenly without cause and the offence lasting for mere seconds. I argued that as the box was not painted up to the kerb it was illegal amongst other complaints I made. The council rejected my appeal so I then went to PATAS with the same evidence, Ealing Council could not even be bothered to submit their own evidence and I won the appeal. Fight Ealing council on your notice, they are not following the rules and are relying on the public just paying!

  76. Oliver says:

    I have received a PCN at Greenfordroad/otter road on a box junction got stuck while on route taking my sick girlfriend to hospital. I have gone along to contest this PCN with the helpful information provided on the site.

  77. jenny says:

    Recieved pcn this morning relating to otter road /greenford road junction.First photo shows car more or less fully in the box at 08.58.35 am and the second shows i have moved on only five seconds later and also that the box is no longer visible around the car .I obviousl;y belived i had room to exit when i entered and wasn’t stationary long .there are traffic lights ahead of me ,surely i should have been stuck there longer if the traffic wasn’t moving? Am planning to ask for dvd evidence and oppose fine .Any suggestions please?

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  80. CalmButDetermined says:

    Considering this e-peptition to the government..any suggestions for improvements and would you sign it?

    “Introduce independent scrutiny of yellow box junctions”

    Yellow box junctions have a valid purpose and should act as a deterrent against inconsiderate driving.

    However in a small number of cases the junction arrangements are such that disproportionately large numbers of drivers become subject to unnecessary fines.

    This is a petition to introduce a well-defined trigger point at which the continued operation of a yellow box junction becomes subject to independent review.

    Authorities should publish on their websites monthly PCN income figures for each yellow box under their control.

    Any yellow box that generates more than £25,000 in fines in any single twelve month period should have enforcement suspended for three months while its effectiveness is scrutinised and measures are put in place to improve the design of the junction (including phasing of traffic lights if appropriate).

  81. Marcia says:

    Can anyone help? I have recieved a PCN for YBJ on Greenford/Otter Road. A ‘suspect’ WHITE VAN stopped in front of me when there was enough space for the vehicle to continue this left me stationary for a few seconds on the yellow box junction. I didn’t enter the directly behind the van, I waited and as I saw it moving and that there should have been sufficient space for me to leave the box I started driving. The WHITE VAN then stopped, leaving me with no option but to stop for a few seconds, conveniently long enough for my car to be picked up by Ealing Councils camera Do I have any grounds for an appeal?

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