Letter of the Law

Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Regulation 29

BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAYS AND BOX JUNCTIONS

PART II

SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS

Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule -

(a) “box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and

(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.

Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7.
– (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8.
When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.

© Crown Copyright 2002

114 Responses to Letter of the Law

  1. Roger Barham says:

    Last year received and unfortunately paid fine for “stopping” in box at Junction Mare Street and Paragon Road, Hackney. I believe at the time I was crawling, albeit very slowly, my exit into the feeder to the bus lane was blocked by a series of cars overtaking on inside then down bus lane at speed. Once cars had passed manoeuvred into feeder to bus lane and out of box. Latter bit not shown on PCN but clear when I requested series of photos.
    After seeing this site I realised that junction may not be legal as box does not go up to curb but stops short of double yellow lines the edge of box forming a third line. What do you think. I realise the fine may be a lost cause but would like to challenge the legality of the box anyway; may save others from highway robbery

  2. Ronnie says:

    Hi

    If the front part of my car is off the box junction and the rear is still on it have I transgressed? is the pcn legal? I’m going to view the video on 8/5/08 what do I look for? Is the junction of the Broadway/Herbert Road in Southall legal?

    Thanks. Ronnie

  3. PM says:

    am challenging the pcn on 2 counts –
    1. box juncion is illegal, as doesn’t go right up to kerb & also stretches past the corners of the kerbs. (thanks for the link to the opsi.gov.uk diagrams).
    2. my vehicle wasn’t stationary but was moving slowly. can’t find anything on your site to confirm that cameras can’t differentiate between 0 & 1 mph – do you have any more info on this, please?

    thanks.

  4. Mark Luscombe says:

    PCN issued after 69 days of alledged contravention – surely this is illegal?

    Thanks

  5. Chris Dye says:

    PCN for stopping in yellow box junction of at St James Street SW1& Piccadilly.
    Five sided box where you have to turn right into Piccadilly successfully appealed on basis of requesting proof of Dept of Transport permision to operate non standard box Westminster council did not contest appeal but did not give reason why
    Hope this helps other people in same situation

  6. Jane Munro says:

    I was on my way up St James Boullivard in Newcastle when I wanted to turn right at the lights there was at a box juntion, they were on green to go streight on but I could not turn right for on coming traffic I was verbelly abused by a bus driver for not entering the box juntion who is right

    Jane

    • John says:

      Assuming there was not a red light for turning right, the bus driver was correct, you should have entered the box and waited inside the box for oncoming traffic to cease to allow you to turn right.

  7. [...] Re: PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction Letter of the Law Money Box Junction [...]

  8. Chris Mills says:

    Hi I received a PCN from Ealing council as I was caught stationary in the yellow box junction at Greenford Rd and Otter Rd Ealing. I have replied with my representation to Ealing council stating that the junction doesn’t comply with ‘The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002′ as advised by a different website about PCN’s. Ealing council rejected my representation on the grounds that ‘the junction may look wrong but it complies with diagram. 1044 of the Regulations 2003. This is a new yellow box junction and I wonder if it is legal or not as I would have to pay the penalty in the next 10 days. Have I got a case?

  9. Chris Mills says:

    Hi Shobhit,
    I also contacted penaltychargenotice.co.uk about this junction and at first they sounded positive but later on when i received the rejection i was told to look at the adjudicators decisions or anything about the rules under the road markings and signs regulations to see if I had a case. Unfortunately I decided to pay the reduced PCN but if I found anything dodgy about this junction i would try and get my money back later although I feel this would be more difficult. The only fault I can assume is that there is no traffic enforcement sign within 40 metres of this box only a speed camera sign. There are strict rules surrounding signs and regulations. It really needs someone to stand up to the council if you have legal support but this is not always a cheap alternative and time is not on our side. Nobody else has given any information about this box. Sometimes I use that road but I am absolutely paranoid now, I hate it.

    Regards

    C Mills

  10. Shobhit says:

    Thanks Chris..Will give them same reason. I have asked the council to show mw video evidence. Still waiting for them to come back. Will send a recorded reminder to cover myself incase they say that a post has been sent. Will update on this board of any developments.

  11. Jiten Govind says:

    Hi Chris, and Shobhit

    I have also reveived a PCN on 3/9/09 greenford road/ otter road, now this PCN does not show my number plate as I stopped in emergency as the car infront of me stopped suddenly, and i was verly close to the car infront. now what they did is taken my number plate after i left the yellow box 15 seconds later from a different camera, I did appeal to view the cctv and they have given me date for 19/11/09. now i wanted to know if i have a case…i can send you the photos showing the time on two photos..i need to know if i have a case.

  12. Chris says:

    Hi Jiten,

    I am no expert but it sounds to me like you might have a case in respect of the car that suddenly stopped in front of you. Have a look at the penaltychargenotice.co.uk website they have some senarios being caught in a yellow box junction and judge whether you have a case from their info.
    Good Luck.

  13. Shobhit Narain says:

    Hi Jeten,
    Apologies for a late response. I have checked several websites and all of them seem to say that atleast two edges of a yellow box should meet the kerb. In case of this greenford road yellow box none of the two edges touch the kerb,moreover as Chris mentioned there are no signs for traffic enforcement cameras- though there are signs for speed/bus lane cameras, I think we do have a case to fight for. I have to see my video evidence tomorrow. Is there anything in particular I should be aware of.
    Rgds,
    Shobhit

  14. Jiten says:

    Hi shobhit

    Well I went to view my video footage and it seems to the guy invited me to view the footage commented that “it is too harsh, and it’s not fare” .

    I did asked him about the new yellow box, and he replied “ sorry I can’t comment on the legality of that yellow box, but you can still appeal again and you might be lucky, you never know”.

    I told him yes I am going to appeal again and ask for mercy, maybe it will work, don’t know why we have to bent our back end and pay, when it’s clearly seen on the cctv, there are no traffic, you can’t see my number plate as I stopped for 8 seconds and moved after the traffic light went green, then your camera operator takes a picture 15 seconds later when I am not on the yellow box and stopped at the traffic light.

    Well he said no comment. I have appealed again on a compassionate ground, and see if they can waive this one off.

    When you view your cctv footage note the time, how long you are in the box, and establish the grounds for appeal, maybe you have not noticed the yellow box and kept on driving until you realised there is a stationary car infront of you,or you stopped because the car infront of you stopped suddenly, also if you are not happy ask him to rewind then see the footage again, and again, and see the footage after you leave the box. As I have noticed that after the yellow box, you are still in a single lane filter from the bus lane, and there is a traffic light, which can cause anyone to be caught on the yellow box easily, as there are no warning sign. You will have 14 days to appeal after you view the cctv. I shall let you know the outcome of my case. Good luck

  15. Shobhit says:

    Hi Jeten,
    Thanks for the tips and the encouragement. Will update tomorrow once I have seen the video footage.
    Thanks
    Shobhit

    • Laks says:

      Hi,

      Any update from any appeals for PCN’s issued at the Greenford Road/Otter Road junction? I would like to appeal on the grounds of the box markings do not comply with the regs in that the yellow lines do not go upto the kerb. Have read that a lot of people have used this in their appeal, wondering how this was resolved with PATAS?

      Thanks in advance for your help

      Laks

  16. [...] junction much has been written. also see Yellow Box Junction – Get it cancelled, exposing fraud and Letter of the Law Money Box Junction you need to see the video. plus check that it its a legal [...]

    • John says:

      You can forget about “yellow box jnc get it cancelled exposing fraud and letter of the law” It has to be one of the worst written websites on the interent. And the information on there regarding ‘case 1′ is not definitive law as there is no case law on the subject of “when the other vehicles stop” an appeal may be lost or won on this point as adjudicators do not have to rely on what previous adjudicators have said on the matter.

  17. Malcolm says:

    Successful Appeal at Otter Road

    I received a PCN for the Otter Road box junction.
    I asked to see the video, but all Ealing sent me was a CD of the few minutes covering my entry into the box on 13 October 2009, and my being stationary with just my back wheels on the front line.

    I appealed and the adjudicator has allowed the appeal and cancelled the PCN because Ealing failed to produce a copy of the PCN.
    So appealing is worth doing.

    Whether Ealing failed because of an administrative error or because they read my letter of appeal and decided they had no case, I will never know.

    It may be helpful to others to read what I said in my appeal:

    “The Grounds of Appeal are that the contravention alleged by Ealing Council did not occur.

    I wrote to Ealing Council: “I need to see the complete video footage held as evidence – please advise how I can do this.”
    Ealing Council has failed to arrange for me to view the complete footage and instead sent me a DVD covering less than 90 seconds of the alleged contravention.

    The original DVD is enclosed. I have no facility to have it copied.

    Road Markings
    The video footage shows at the very beginning [approx. frame 560198 : time 18:05:05] that the box junction does not comply with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions for box junction markings as neither corner of the box junction extends to the kerbs on the corners to Otter Road leading off to the right.

    Signage
    I understand that there are warning signs of a bus lane and of cameras to monitor them and also speed cameras but no signs telling motorists that they are approaching this box junction or that there are cameras to monitor how motorists travel though it.
    I believe it should be for Ealing Council to show evidence that such signage, should it exist, was in place on the date of the alleged contravention (13/10/09).

    Evidence that the Road Ahead of the Box Junction Was Not Clear
    The DVD fails to show what the motorist can see as he approaches the box junction (towards the cameras used for the video) so there is no evidence that I entered the box junction without a reasonable certainty that I could exit it.
    Like all good motorists, I read the road ahead – not just the back end of the car in front.

    It will be noted that throughout the video evidence supplied on the DVD, traffic was very light.
    We see just one bus turn right [approx. frame 560252 : time 18:05:08], only four cars travel towards the camera in the 60 second time frame that is relevant [approx. frames 560252 - 561679 : 18:05:05 – 18:06:04] and only two cars pass in the opposite direction, neither of which seeks to turn into Otter Road – what appears from a street atlas to be a very minor road.

    The four cars relevant to the alleged contravention I refer to, in the order they cross the box junction as: Car A (what looks like a greenish car); Car B (what appears to be a black car); Car C (a silver car – mine [xx regn no xx]) and Car D (another black car [xx reg no xx]).

    Car A travels across the box junction immediately after the bus turns right with an apparently clear road ahead [approx. frame 560334 : time 18:05:11].

    Car B begins to travel across the box with an obvious clear exit from the box [approx. frame 560405 : time 18:05:14].

    Car A is still moving forward leaving two clear car lengths behind. Car B meanwhile is almost through the box and Car C (my car) is yet to enter the box but it is obvious that there will be room to cross and clear the box [approx. frame 560518 : time 18:05:19].

    What Caused My Car (Car C) to Stop
    Car A stops but why it stops is not shown by the evidence.
    If Car A stopped behind another vehicle the evidence does not show how far back from that vehicle, Car A stopped – it could have been three or four car lengths – we cannot tell.
    Car B is still moving forward to occupy one of the two spaces behind Car A and Car C is moving across the box [approx. frame 560621 : time 18:05:22].
    Please note that Car D behind me (in Car C), has also started to cross the box, clearly reading the road as I must have done, believing the traffic ahead, if it had become momentarily stationary, was moving once again.
    It should also be noted that there are no other vehicles behind Car D at this time and no vehicles have passed in the opposite direction.

    We next see Car B has stopped well short of Car A, leaving less than a car space behind it, causing Car C not to be able to completely clear the box. Car D is still moving through the box [approx. frame 560675 : time 18:05:24].

    It is not until 18: 05: 30 that all four cars become stationary [approx. frame 560810 : time 18:05:30]. They start moving again approx. 25 seconds later [approx. frame 561443 : time 18:05:55].
    No vehicle had sought to turn right into Otter Road during that time.

    In Mitigation
    I respectfully ask you to take into account the following:
    • I was a stranger to the area as you will see from my address;
    • There is no evidence I entered the box junction without a realistic belief I had a clear exit nor entered the box without due regard for the law;
    • During the 30 seconds that my car was technically stopped in the box (because unbeknown to me, my rear wheels were still in it), I never caused any obstruction to a vehicle wishing to turn right and no vehicle in the whole of the time sought to do so;
    • Also, probably not within your remit, someone should be asking:
    o Why was a box junction installed for a very minor turn-off (Otter Road) when a “Keep Clear” would have been the normal signage for such a junction?
    o Why does a motorist not get a warning of a box junction at a place where he would not expect to encounter one?
    o What is causing so many motorists to be trapped by this particular box junction?
    o Why, according to internet sources, is this box junction earning more revenue for Ealing Council than most of its others?
    o Should this box junction, with all the problems it causes motorists using Greenford Road, be changed to a “Keep Clear” or at least stopped being used for the wholesale issue of PCNs?

    I thank you for your patience.”

    • ayerm says:

      Hi Malcolm, I just need a quick reply from you. I have just recd a pcn 31J, for ” entering and stopping” the boxed junction in the broadway/herbert road, in southall. I intend to contest this, as I find it riduculous of the ealing council to slap this fine.since i am new to the uk, i am not clear on a few things, on the process..When I contest the penalty charge,do i write down my entire grounds for contesting at this stage? or must i contest it, simply stating that ” no contravention took place” and that I ” would like to have the video footage ” of the contravention?..or is it that my entire contention should be stated at the first letter itself? the reason i am asking is I don’t remember what made me stop my car at the junction(most probably sudden stopping of the truck in front of me), but i would like to view the video footage before I make any appeals?..how does the process work?many thanks

    • ayerm says:

      Malcolm,
      please ignore my earlier message .U hv indicated on a later post, that initially all i need to is just the tick the 2nd option and ask to be seeing a video footage, which i am going to do now.( we are new to the uk-moved from the netherlands- where my licence and driving skills are from !I find the quality of roads to be quite poor with high speed limits/road signs to be very vague,which is quite a challenge for us. since we have moved to the uk, all I have been doing is fight with estate agents claims on our deposits,landlords on spurious claims and now within a short span been slapped 3 ” speeding” and boxed junction fines, with a threat of points on my licence.(for doing 34 miles in a 30 zone- where the road signs changed abruptly- points on my licence for this..)..all this meant, i didnt read all ur post thoroughly…thanks for all your inputs..it is a great help. cheers.

  18. ang says:

    Hi i too have just received a penaly notice for otter road/greenford dated 26/01/10. my back wheels are in the box as the car infront of me decided to stop for a brief time leaving 2 car spaces infront of him,preventing me to move any further. this journey is a nightmare anyway people drive between 5-30 miles an hr,people are always pulling out or walking out,its hard enough to keep up with the traffic stop starting let alone being forced to stop in a junction……i want to contest this as the 1st pic was 7.30.59 sec and the 2nd was 7.31.24 sec and i was clearly well clear of the box junction at the 2nd picture. people have said to me just pay as i will lose the case. but ithink ealing council are just trying it on.

  19. Malcolm says:

    Ang,
    The PCN attempts to hassle you into paying within 14 days or the fine is doubled to £120.
    That only applies if you make no appeal. If you appeal the 28 days starts again from when they reply.
    It will cost you nothing to act now by ticking the second box under the heading “How to Contest The Penalty Charge”, against where it says: “There was no contravention…”
    Write in the space to the right where it gives the PCN number, that you wish an appointment to view the video evidence or simply that you want to see the video evidence (in which case they will probably send you a DVD).
    Sign and date the form and don’t forget to take a photocopy before posting it.

    When you get Ealing’s letter rejecting your representation, you will be given a further 28 days to pay.
    You can then consider again whether you want to appeal to the tribunal. So far it has cost you nothing except the photocopy.

    If you decide to appeal, take time preparing your letter of appeal carefully – get the spelling and grammar right. The text of my letter might help you with marshalling your arguments.

    Good luck.

    Let us know how you get on.

  20. Laks says:

    Hi,

    Any update from any appeals for PCN’s issued at the Greenford Road/Otter Road junction? I would like to appeal on the grounds of the box markings do not comply with the regs in that the yellow lines do not go upto the kerb. Have read that a lot of people have used this in their appeal, wondering how this was resolved with PATAS?

    Thanks in advance for your help

    Laks

  21. [...] Re: PCN – Box junction TfL wording on this is very misleading. and the pictures prove nothing at all. Letter of the Law Money Box Junction [...]

  22. ang says:

    I finally got my reply today,stating rejected as i should have waited for the vehicle ahead of me to clear the box junction(which i did) however keeping up with the traffic i continued to move knowing there would have been clearly 2 car spaces in front of me if the other vehicle hadnt have stopped metres away from the previous vehicle. it makes me sick now i have noticed driving through this route virtually every car leves a 2 car space gap between themselves including myself as who knows where another box junction willpop up unexpectedly therfor the traffic and journey takes twice as long! also i have noticed during the bad weather i ws unable to see any clear road markings so they should provide signs warnings drivers,ealing council are making alot of money out of this box junction!

  23. sam says:

    I too just received a letter from Ealing about the Greenford/Otford box.

    Like above my two back wheels where on the box and the second photo shows my reg number but i am not on the box 15 seconds later. I believe i was driving through the box at snail pace as you do when you are in a traffic jam. I am particular about boxes because my partner got caught last year.

    Not only this but the letter was lost in the post and i didn’t receive it till three weeks later meaning i have no choice but to pay £120. I have just e-mailed Ealing asking to pay the original sum of £60 so will let you know how that goes. but after reading the above i really think they are taking the mick…..

  24. sam says:

    phoned the council today and they are going to reduce my fine back down to £60 to paid it. Better that then £120!

  25. [...] Re: Yellow Box Junction- Code 31 help needed go see the video, it is the only way to find out as it is an allegation of a moving contravention Letter of the Law Money Box Junction [...]

  26. Roz says:

    I have been issued a PCN for yellow box junction Battersea Bridge rd/Westbridge Rd. This junction is a nightmare in rush hour because of the congestion and the merging of the lanes when approaching Battersea Bridge. Has anybody won an appeal based on the box not being regulation? only 1 of the 4 corners touch the kerb, the other 3 stop before the red route double lines.

  27. stuart says:

    I too have been issued a PCN for YBJ Battersea Bridge Rd/Westbridge Rd (my back wheels overhanging and way forward blocked by a car changing lanes)I too would be interested in any comments on this Yellow Box Junction.

  28. Jed says:

    Same thing for me – 29th March 2010 – PCN for YBJ Battersea Bridge Rd/Westbridge Rd. Traffic was flowing, albeit slowly, then double decker bus stopped in front of me & I could not proceed safely, the rear half of my car was photographed in the box junction. I cannot tell from the stills, how long I was stationary.Any update on this particular site would be greatly appreciated!

    • Jed says:

      RESULT – kinda
      after a month of waiting for a response from TFL, yesterday came the good news…I had appealed on all grounds: no warning of CCTV, box markings not meeting curb edge, crazy London traffic, I asked to see video footage of the event etc. Etc.
      Tfl took 2 pages to dismiss all of my points and then said that they were happy to cancel the fine! I’d call that a result!!!
      It just shows that we should all complain/rant/protest/demand change when money grabbing,
      bureaucratic Britain gets greedy beyond belief.

      Thanks for this forum existing.
      Jed

      • v346ebc says:

        Dear Jed,
        that`s a huge result.Congratulations!!!
        I got PCN few days ago on the same location as you
        I will need a template or copy from your appeal.
        Please help me.
        My email is: kgerassimov@yahoo.co.uk
        I will be appreciated to hear any advices from you
        Once again thank you for your time on
        this matter.
        Best Regards,
        Kris

  29. Gee says:

    Can someone please confirm whether the corners of box junctions must touch the corners of the curb at a T junction? There is one in Waltham Forest which does not – it touches one corner but falls short of the other one by about 2 feet. I can email pics if anyone can help?

  30. Anna says:

    Any joy on appeals mentioned against GREENFORD RD/OTTER ROAD junction? Just received a fine. Thanks Ealing Counil, you won’t be getting my vote in the forthcoming election! This was a keep clear box not so long ago – I expect they introduced it after their other boxes were deemed illegal. Would be very grateful if you know of any successful appeals concerning the legality of this box as I notice that some people were appealing on this point to PATAS a few months ago. THANKS!

    • Dave says:

      I too have had a PCN for this junction. I appealed using the argument the box lines do not go upto the kerb (As you all have) but they have rejected this claim. They have (in my opinion) tried to twist the argument into me saying they haven’t used the correct type of yellow box, not the fact they haven’t marked it correctly.

      They also told me they checked with the ‘Highways Department’ who apparently confirmed this junction complies with the regulations. Now I can’t find any existence of this ‘Highways Department’, but through some digging I’ve spoken to someone who works in the Traffic Signs Policy Branch at the Department for Transport. I’m told that – whilst they cannot comment on the legal status of the box markings – that is for a judge or adjudicator to decide, they can say that the box ‘should confirm to the diagram – the 1043/1044 one.

      I’m going to get the info as to if the council have authorisation for this junction – but really need to get a copy of the actual submitted design but this will take 21 days which is cutting it very fine to appeal with.

  31. Anna says:

    Thanks for the update. Great investigate work – good luck!

  32. Malcolm says:

    In my Appeal, which was successful because Ealing Council put forward no evidence (see my post of 24 January 2010), one of the arguments I put forward was that because the cameras only took pictures of me and where I had come from and not of the direction I was travelling, Ealing Council failed to show that I had entered the box junction without a reasonable expectation of exiting from it (see paragraph headed “Evidence that the Road Ahead of the Box Junction was Not Clear”).

    Whether this argument was a clincher, I don’t know, but I think it is worth throwing into any Appeal.

    • Dave says:

      That’s really interesting Malcom, they did the same with me – the only photo I’ve seen of te back of my car is showing my number plate, not the state of traffic ahead etc.

      I’ve already got more than enough info for my appeal but it certainly won’t hurt to put that in as a valid point :) Likewise as someone said before the junction @ otter road is so minor and hardly used, why is it a yellow box in the first place!

  33. Dave says:

    Just to update those interested in the Greenford Road/Otter road one:

    I’ve since had it confirmed from the DFT that Ealing council have NO authorisation for this junction, meaning they should have followed the ‘guidelines’ set out in the Traffic signs manual.

    I’ve a link to the specific chapter online – http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/trafficsignsmanualchapter5.pdf If you look at page 78 of this chapter you will see the familar diagram showing the yellow box – however this one has the box extending to the kerb (as we all know it should) and the ‘Kerb line’ is CLEARLY labelled on it…

    I full intend to appeal my ticket based on the information I have – Ealing are not playing very fair here. They even tried to be clever with their letter refusing my initial appeal – ignoring my point about the box touching the kerb, but working it so it appears I’m querying the type of box junction used…

  34. Anna says:

    An update on Greenford Rd/ Otter Rd.

    Following Dave’s advice (thanks Dave!) I read through the Traffic Signs Manual and noticed Paragraph 12.4 says: “Traffic regulation orders are not needed in order to install yellow box markings, although the police should always be consulted.”

    I have contacted the Met police and have just received an email detailing all correspondence with Ealing Council regarding Greenford Rd. In every folder of correspondence there is NO MENTION OF THE YELLOW BOX JUNCTION. I have appealed to Ealing Council on this basis (that they have not followed the correct procedures.)

    I await their response. I anticipate that it will be rejected in which case I will take my evidence to PATAS.

    Have you heard your case yet Dave?

    • Dave says:

      Hi Anna!

      Interesting information about the Police there I shall be sure to throw that in when I have my appeal – which is scheduled for the 9th of June – so fingers crossed it goes well!

      Other than that very little to report, just a waiting game now. I need to go and get some pictures of the junction clearly showing the lines not touching the kerb, though the CCTV stills from Ealing show it clearly enough!

      In theory with my PATAS appeal a couple of weeks away, I should know the outcome before you get to the PATAS stage – in which case (all being well) I can pass on more info to you Anna :)

  35. Anna says:

    Good luck for 9th June Dave! It sounds like PATAS are hearing a lot about this junction at the moment. If you let me know your email I will forward you the info I have from the police….in return for your photos when you get them! Thanks!

    • Dave says:

      Hi again Anna,

      Sorry for the slight delay there. I should be getting some pics taken this week – Friday 4th June and will have them ready to send your way shortly after.

      My email is dv80 AT hotmail .co .uk

      (I’ve put spaces in to try and prevent spam – never, stops randoms finding the email so easily :) )

  36. Anna says:

    VICTORY AT GREENFORD RD/OTTER RD!!

    EALING COUNCIL ARE REVIEWING THE BOX AND ALL TICKETS HAVE BEEN CANCELLED. YOU CAN GET A REFUND IF YOU PAID. See the article:

    http://tinyurl.com/3ynegbg

    Well done everyone who appealed!

    • Jiten says:

      Hello Anna

      I would like to thank you and others for all your hard work in fighting this Otter/Road Yellow box junction, Finally the nightmare is over, and once again we win…….

  37. roy barazier says:

    If those of your posters who are jumping up and down with joy and hoping to get a refund I suggest they have a look at the Ealing Council website. They will only consider refunds if a penalty notice was issued before 30th April 2010 BUT – and it a big but – only if the fine was paid AFTER 30th April 2010. Most people – like me – would have paid the fines immediately on receipt of the penaly notice- I had one on 16/9/2009 and 4/3/2010. I think this is outrageous – obviously they do not want to pay out a lot of money so have brought this restriction in which in my opinion is criminal. They should refund all fines

  38. sam says:

    This is a reply I recived from an email I sent in, how can they dismiss the claim because of when I paid the fine, surely it was illegal in October last year as well. Not sure what I can do now.

    We received official notification on the 30/04/2010 that this restriction may not be compliant. Enforcement stopped on the 30/04/2010.
    >
    > Since learning of this issue, this council has taken swift action to ensure that enforcement was temporarily suspended pending the necessary adjustments being made to the Yellow Box Junction. I can assure you that this council has taken this instance very seriously and our actions are a reflection of our continued dedication to ensure PCNs are issued correctly, and in accordance with relevant regulations.
    >
    > There are only a limited number of Penalty Charge Notice’s (PCN) that are eligible for a refund. They are defined by the following criteria:
    >
    > 1. The contravention occurred at the location for code 31j
    > 2. The date of contravention is on or before the 30/04/2010.
    > 3. The date of payment received by us is on or after the 30/04/2010.
    >
    > Looking at your PCN it appears to fall outside the above criteria because your payment was received on the 19th October 2009
    >
    > I must confirm that in light of the above information your request for a refund has been rejected.
    >
    > If you require any further information please contact us on 020 8825 6565 quoting your Penalty Charge Notice number

    • Shobhit Narain says:

      Hi,
      I received a PCN for the same illegal yellow box- otter road/greenford road in october-09. I did send a lot of mails to the council telling them that the box is illegal and non-compliant. Eventually I paid in feb. 10 but mentioned in the last letter that it is in no way an acceptance of guilt,I would have taken the case to PATAS but couldn’t do so because of lack of time. Now I have written to Ealing council CEO asking them to refund the illegitimate charges-but received the same old standard response. This time I have made sure that I drag the council to the small claims court. This is a clear criminal offence and whosoever has been penalised are entitled for a refund, compensation and an apology(which is a big question mark). As per the procedure you should approach the council complaints line, -when they say no or ignore the complaint, the LGO-local govt. ombudsman-http://www.lgo.org.uk/- I have done so and am expecting to hear from them within 10 days. The last resort after this is the small claims court. I suggest that we can make a combined complaint and make sure that an adequate compensation is awarded by the council for their illegal act.

  39. sam says:

    Hi Shobhit

    Thanks for the advice for the local government ombudsman. I did not know about it and as such I have registered my complaint as well

    They say on the site they will reply with 5 days

    • sam says:

      Recieved a reply today from LGO stating to give the council 12 weeks to deal with the complaint, however I recieved this email today from Ealing council also.

      Greenford Road / Otter Road

      Thank you for your email. The refund is not part of the statutory procedure and this action was taken by the Council purely on the basis as a goodwill gesture. A rejection of your request for a refund due to the set criteria not met does not entitle applicants to any further right of appeal. I regret that applications such as yours do not qualify for the refund.

      Yours sincerely

      Karen

      I guess I will get back to the LGO now

  40. Shobhit Narain says:

    Hi,
    I contacted the LGO today and they have asked me to wait till next week for the council to come back. I am pretty sure that Ealing council will give the same excuse and reject the refund.
    I am planning to take the council to small claims court now that its clear that the box was illegal. I have read in a couple of forums which say that any such payment by councils is a criminal offence and a hefty penalty can be imposed on them.
    I suggest that we all should make a combined claim for a bigger impact.
    Rgds,
    Shobhit

  41. Shobhit says:

    Hi,
    I haven’t heard from LGO yet, the last mail they sent was to give the council some time to reply. About making a combined complain, we would need to find if there is any such provision, if not then we all will have to co-ordinate in a such a way that we file our complains in the small claims court on the same day for a greater impact.
    Shobhit

  42. Shobhit says:

    LGO came back today saying that there would be a further 4-6 weeks time taken to assess the situation-this is just ridiculous. 2 months with a dedicated team to respond to such complaints. Looks like the LGO works for the govt. departments. This is just frustating, looking at the timelines it doesn’t look like this matter would be resolved before the end of this year. I have decided to take the council to the court and ask for a compensation of atleast £3000.00.
    I am planning to file a case in the small claims court next week. Would appreciate if people can update their thoughts and actions.
    Shobhit

  43. roy barazier says:

    I wrote to Ealing Council with various arguements as to why they should refund everyone who received penalty notices during the perioid the box was incorrectly marked. I pointed out that the vasr majority who received penalty notices prior to 1st April would have paid before 30th April. Those receiving penalty notices in the first two weeks of April would most certainly have paid in April leaving a relative small number in the last two weeks of April paying after 30th April.The council rejected my appeal stating that there was no statuary right to refund fines but as a gesture of goodwill they had refunded thos that met the criterea as set out on their websire namely they would only refund fines where the penalty notice was received begore 30th April and paid after 30th April.They said this ruling cannot be appealed.

  44. Dave says:

    Sorry to hear about all those who are can’t get money back from the Greenford Road/Otter Road junction :(

    I went past there the other day to see the ‘changes’ that now make the box ‘legal’ according to Ealing Council. As far as I can see they’ve put a couple of signs up, telling you there is a box coming and it’s monitored. The box itself is unchanged – that is is STILL doesn’t touch the kerb and so should still be (if all the information I had for my appeal is correct) considered incorrect and the council shouldn’t be able to charge anyone…

    Very frustrating how the council knowingly get it wrong and STILL get it wrong even after they tell us it’s been ‘fixed’

  45. Shobhit Narain says:

    Hi,
    I took up the case with the Local Government ombudsman, they came back saying that ealing council cannot be challenged since I didn’t go to PATAS earlier.But I think it is a clear criminal case- its the same that you mug someone and enjoy, if the victim doesn’t complain to the authorities in time. It simply seems that a crime is not a crime if you get delayed in complaining. I am not sure, if taking the case to small claims court will make any difference. Any suggestions.
    Rgds,
    Shobhit

  46. Simon Smith says:

    Is the Otter Road/Greenford Road YBJ now compliant or is it still illegal? The YBJ does not go to the kerb.

  47. Andrew says:

    Also been refused a refund from Ealing as I paid up in Jan. Disgusting, is there nothing that can be done?

  48. Shobhit says:

    Hi All,
    I have filed a case (small claims court) against ealing council for the illegal PCN for otter road/greenford road junction. It costed me £60 to claim £1000.00. The council has 28 days till 04/10/10 to respond. I would urge everyone to file a case against the council to make each other case/s stronger.
    I will update this page as and when I can.
    Rgsd,
    Shobhit

  49. Andrew says:

    Well done Shobhit, keep us posted and good luck. I’m considering doing the same as a matter of principle. Can you offer any more details, how did you come to the £1000 figure?
    Cheers
    Andrew

  50. shobhit says:

    Hi Andrew,
    Sorry for such a late response. Looking at the small claims court website I arrived at spending £60 for a compensation of £1000. The breakdown includes- £120.00 refund of the pcns, £200 for loss of earnings, £80 for the visits and time involved in pursuing the case and the remaining £600 as compensation. The latest update is that the council has replied to the case on 24/09 and the district judge takes atleast 2 weeks to make a judgement.
    I am planning to call up the court tomorrow to get a status update. I will update the link as and when I have something.
    Have you filed any case against the council yet?
    Rgds,
    Shobhit

  51. Tom Hawkins says:

    The box junction I entered does not touch the kerb but does contact the kerb line (giveway lines). Is this legal. The video was taken by an illegally parked Smart car. This seems cruely ironic! I was in heavy tracffic and was not aware that the hatched lines were there, when my passenger pointed out that the CCTV vehicle was there I positoned the vehicle in a position which did not obstruct any vehicles. Do I have a case or should I just pay up.

  52. Debbie says:

    My husband returned from work yesterday with exactly the same PCN as described in the posts above. I feel fortunate to have found this site and we will study
    the all of them before deciding what to do.
    If the junction is technically illegal we will certainly make strenuous efforts to fight the penalty.
    Thanks to all those above for the timely and detailed comments regarding the Greenford/Otter Road junction.
    It would appear that Ealing Council are using the junction as some kind of cash cow. Sadly, in this economic climate we don’t have a spare £60 hanging about to give to allegedly ‘illegal’ yellow box.

    Kind Regards,

    Debbie

  53. shobhit says:

    Well well well…. I finally heard from the small claims court and by the looks of it they don’t have the power to make a decision against councils… especially the pcns. I have been handed over another charge of £140 to pay-up the charges of the council or go to the high court if I wish to contend the charges. Its quite strange and hard to understand how can a body whose job is make sure that you are not mugged is actually helping someone to mug and make money illegally. I will seek some legal advise on this and give my piece of mind to the hapless county court customer service agent.

  54. Debbie says:

    Hi Shobhit,

    I really admire your tenacity. Has this really been going on since October 2009 or have I got my facts wrong?
    Your personal experience been invaluable and we really appreciate your persistence and are only sorry that this has gone on so long for you.

    I will let you know how we get on.

    Best wishes

    Debbie

    • Shobhit says:

      Hi Debbie,
      Thanks for the note. Infact, I have spoken to the small claims court, community law and Citizens advice bureau- and none of them seem to be able to advise anything about how to fight illegal pcns. The small claims court does not have the authority to make judgements against any local councils. To challenge any local council you are not given any options but to go to the high court and spend your time, money and energy. I have spent almost an year, to get my money out of the council, but the systems doesn’t seem to work.
      All the best.
      Rgds,
      Shobhit

  55. J Baker says:

    I have received a PCN rejection for entering into a YBJ. Having veiwed the video tape I did indeed follow through a few seconds later after a white van had vacated the space for one in the next lane and i took his space which was in YBJ. However I have long suspected that this YBJ is illigal as it is situated just outside a bus terminal before a set of traffic lights, it has no right turn entry or exit and spans across just one and half lanes of a three lane one-way road. It is however entered constantly (up to at least 20 a day)by London Transport buses who stop there and wait for the lights to turn green (I have taken photos), which led me and other drivers no doubt that this YBJ was not forceable. It would be intresting to know how many PCN the LTA receives for this contravention if any. Therefore this a discrimative act against car users. How can I find out if this YBJ is illigal or not? The YJB in question is situated at Watermead Rd, Tottenham Hale N17.

  56. resham says:

    hi guys

    i got pcn on 18/10/10 on the same box junction of greeford road and otter road. my situation is there juction road to greenford road was closed. there were no way a vehicle making right turn from opposite lane. then the road is only open straight or making left turn. i want to get info about if that rule was valid at that time coz the box juction at that time is only box and without any benefit to traffic. the only benefit was to make oppurtunity to create trap. can i pay and appeal for that pcn. or what will happen if the appeal process goes beyond 14 or 28 days that my pcn meter will go on untill decision takes place.

    again, when road works occurs & there is no chance to create obstacle to traffic why the box junction was nt suspended for that limited time as other traffic rules. one last question why is video evidence not provided online like other council where u enter ur required info like pcn no, car index, etc and watch instanly to figure out ur incident. is this all made messy to generate ££££££s and hide their wrong doingss…….. and also public are made maze to appeal than other pcn.

    cheers

    i m confident there were numbers of people getting pcnon that week of road works…

  57. shobhit says:

    Hi,
    The greenford/otter road junction is still illegal. I would really suggest that you take the case to PATAS. The council will definately intimidate you in all the ways possible. If you look at the past cases on this site you will note that the box has been declared illegal and the council hasn’t done anything to change the box yet.
    All the best.
    Rgds,
    Shobhit

  58. artbuild says:

    Hi Thanx for all of you living hire all important information. my driver was catch on greenford EALING council MAFIA BOX on21-10-10 so we will try to avoid paying them penny ..if is illegal then we can apel

  59. Mike Southard says:

    If they wont refund, and the small claims court has no power over them, have you thought about the human rights act? I’m sure there is a section in there about being punished for something that was not an offence at the time. An illegal box junction pcn is being punished for something that wasn’t an offence at the time and so would come under the act.

  60. The pig says:

    I also got a PCN while Otter road was blocked. I would like to appeal on the grounds that legally a box junction can only be valid ‘in a junction’ and due to roadworks, there was no junction there at the time of alleged contravention. DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT PAST PATAS CASES at this junction or another one, where roadworks invalidate a box junction because due to roadworks there is no junction there?

    thanks!!!!! :)

  61. Tony Mann says:

    Have a PCN for Otter Road.

    The council have told me that they have repainted the junction to make it legal. It doesn’t look like they have so I guess it must still not be legally marked.

    There are also two other reasons I think there was no contravention.

    1. There is a bus lane on the exit to the alleged box. So I stopped in order not to go into bus lane (not because of the presence of stationary traffic)

    2. The car in front was still moving when I entered the alleged box. Hence I did not cause a vehicle to enter the alleged box when there were stationary vehicles.

    I think the case is save because of the wrong markings but these two points are also valid.

    Do you agree?

  62. Shobhit says:

    Well…I saw the box on 06/12/10 and it definately has not been painted or redone in anyway. I received 2 PCNs on the same box last year and pursued the council till Oct. this year. Even filed a case against them in the small claims court- eventually the court came back saying that it is the high court which can make decisions for anything against the council/s. My advice to you would be- take the photos of the box, write to the council that there has been no changes in the box whatsoever and it is still illegal. You can even see that this box is declared not correct on Ealing council website. Just type Otter road/greenford road box in google and check on the official site. See the posts on this page around April this year. If the council is still adamant, I would point towards PATAS.
    All the best.
    Shobhit

    • Tony Mann says:

      I read about your problem re the high court.

      I was wondering, have you explored the possibility of a class action in the high court.

      There are a number of law firms advertising on the internet for class action cases and I think they might even consider it on a no win no fee basis.

  63. brian ohare says:

    Hello,

    I have just recieved a 60 pound fine for stopping in a yellow box junction. The photographic evidence shows that the box junction is quite faded. I want to argue the case that I did not realise until it was too late that I was in a box junction. I did reverse slightly so as to allow the oncoming traffic that wanted to turn right in the box junction to continue with their manoevre. This can also be seen in the photograph with my reverse lights on.

    I would appreciated any advice/comments.

    Kind regards

    Brian

  64. brian ohare says:

    RE: the last post, the yellow box junction is on Kew Road before Kew Bridge, London

    Kind regards

    Brian

  65. Jack Stewart says:

    Any update on Greenford/Otter Road Box Junction legality? I have a PCN for an offence (or not!) in late November 2010.
    I entered the box in flowing traffic but was forced to stop by vehicle in front stopping abruptly, leaving clear road ahead, with plenty of space for both cars. There is some sort of road works visible in the inside lane and I think I recall some people messing about moving gear in and out of road works, but this is not visible on photos supplied.
    I have had my first appeal rejected; can I still ask to see the video? Is this box junction legal? The Highway Code also requires a driver to ‘make reasonable progress’, surely urban traffic cannot progress if everyone waits until there is space for a vehicle beyond every box junction before entering? We enter boxes with the reasonable expectation that traffic continues to flow, don’t we?

    • Jay says:

      Any update on Greenford/Otter Road Box Junction Jack ?
      I had the same problem on 23rd April 2011.
      I also entered the box when traffic was flowing with car ahead stopping suddenly. It had room ahead to allow me to clear the box but I was unaware that I was being monitored.
      My first appeal was rejected but without my knowledge. I had sent my representation via email but did not get a reply. I got a further charge certificate. I sent further emails asking for a response but still no reply. It was only then after I phoned council number and selected every option until I could speak to someone. I got a number from a third party company ! The council parking services told me my apeal was rejected and I was sent out a letter of rejection, which I never received ? A fews days later the wrote to me with a copy of the rejection. Obviously abot too late now and my only option is to go to an independant adjudicator when I get my court order for £195. Not amused !

  66. aleks says:

    is this site still active? I have a PCN for the same box that Brian Ohare got a ticket, I believe the box may be illegal because the edge of it is greater than 10% from the kerb (does that make sense?) can anyone please advise if they think it is illegal. Here is the google map link although it doesnt appear to hold the zoom / centre point (its where the yellow and green roads meet (it is better on street view)

    http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=kew+bridge&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=kew+bridge&hnear=0x48760fecf67a3f5d:0x9cf400a7a9c7713,Kensington&cid=0,0,7226439865135997021&ei=FIDbTefJI4u5hAeA_emtDw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=2&ved=0CDkQnwIwAQ

    thanks in advance

  67. Jack Stewart says:

    Jay…..I had my appeal to PATAS upheld on the basis that the Yellow Box does not reach the kerb…..I think. Actually the judgement was too verbose for me to understand, but I appealed on the grounds that it does not reach the kerb. I went back and took photos and attached them to my appeal. Amazing to me, a couple of weeks later Ealing re-appealed! but then withdrew their re-appeal. I guess someone knows the box is not up to spec. I also suspect Ealing employ someone to drive round that block stopping in front of cars to keep them stuck in the box, I wouldn’t put anything past ‘em!
    Jack Stewart

    • s says:

      Hi Jack, can u assist. Do u have a copy of ur appeal letter

    • Marcia says:

      I just received a PCN for the Greenford Road/Otter Road YBJ. I totally agree that I think someone purposefully stopped in front of me in a white van when the road in front of the van was clear enough for two vehicles. I think there is some illegal activity going on here as well as the logistics of the lines/kerb situation.

  68. Cinamon Baz says:

    ive lost 2 appeals against TFL my back wheel were in a box junction for 10 seconds, the cars in my daughters name and im the driver, its the box junction in euston road/dukes rd/churchway (north box) the fines now £187 and they want me to do a stat dec please help

  69. Balsa miah says:

    Hi needed to knw how should a box junction be at a t-junction as I have got penatly notice on new kings road I just need to knw if that box junction is an illegal one thx

    • Shadie says:

      Hi I received a PCN too about this YBJ with the video clip showing the traffic flowing smoothly after the traffic lights showed green and suddenly a car ahead driving on the right lane changed his mind and stopped to get on to the left lane but a truck on that lane could not allow it. Consequently, two cars following it stopped abruptly, the third one swerved to the left lane and was stuck right behind the other car. My two back wheels were in the box for some seconds and the traffic began to move again. When I sent my representation to LBHF, they rejected it on the grounds that I entered the box when there was no exit space ahead but that was not the case. The first car ahead stopped abruptly after I had entered the box and was following smoothly before the halt. I want some advice because, like Jack Stewart said in his post of Feb 25 2011, cars are meant to make progress while the traffic was flowing smoothly with no obstruction ahead in view, no one expecting the driver was going to stop abruptly in the way forcing those behind to stop and my stop was just for few seconds which did not obstruct any vehicle. Anyone with relevant case similar to this for my defence with the PATAS? Is anyone aware if that YBJ is legal or not? Please help.

  70. s says:

    Please can someone help with my yellow box fine on hertbert road. Is it illegal ?

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  72. A Lam says:

    I got a ticket through the post for stopping in the box junction. When I made the decision to drive into the box:
    1. The cars in front of me were all moving, nothing was stationary
    2. When I look at the picture, about a 1 – 1.5 ft of my car is in the box
    3. Although this is initially a 2 lane road, the 3 cars in front of me were straddling in the middle of the two lanes, I was trying to stay to the right lane as I did not want to get blocked by parked vehicles ahead if I stayed in the left lane. If I would have forced my way totally into the right lane, half of my car would have been on the opposite side of the road.
    4. The lights were still green at the time I had to stop in the box
    5. I was not obstructing any vehicles if the lights had changed to red
    6. I have driven down this road plenty of times over the years and have never stopped in the box

    I was just wondering if anyone had any up to date info on whether the box junction is legal? Everywhere I’ve looked seems to date from 2006-2010, any info or advice would be appreciated, I could really do without having to shell out £65 two weeks before Christmas.

    TIA

  73. chic says:

    Hi you can try the website advice called honestjohn and there is some good advice about PCN’s I think you can go down the lines of them proving your the driver!

  74. A Lam says:

    @chic Thank you

  75. Jay says:

    Hi,

    You can apeal the decision , speak to the council about what the PCN apeal process is.

    I had a similar problem and did not want to pay but my apeal was rejected and my fine doubled. I just paid it in the end as I did not have time and did not want the hassle to prepare for court.

  76. Ross says:

    Hi,I have PCN code 31 in yjb in St James Street/Leucha Road in Walthamstow E17 and it seems after I read all this comments that the box is illegal, and other reasons witch the live operators ignoring and trying to top up for the council.This is really annoying and I believe everybody should always appeal but the question is:is this normal,to put so much effort and anger to prepare your self and spend so much time and live in pressure just because somebody like this live operators don’t like you or the council ignore you.How comes normal this days to see that the council find a illegal way to paint road marks and give illegal PCN and and to get paid for this without any problems.Hope Shobhit won his case but the fact that he didn’t post it make me think the opposite,no hope,but never give up…

  77. Chic says:

    Unfortunately your guilty until proven otherwise! It’s a totally unfair system you have to gather any relevant evidence before going to a tribunual. If you can do that I think you have a good chance of getting the PCN anulled. There was a programme on TV recently about parking tickets etc which showed not all tickets are issued fairly. Good luck.

  78. Marcia says:

    Has anyone had any satisfaction with appeals to Ealing Council for the Greenford Road/Otter Road? I don’t live in London and would have difficulty getting photos etc as evidence. Also, did anyone else have a WHITE VAN stop abruptly in front of them despite the road in front of the van having sufficient space for both vehicles? I suspect something illegal going on here.

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  81. Bakary says:

    I have PCN for stopping in a box junction on the 28/8/13, I cannot see if I was stopped as car in front appear to be moving from the picture at Westhorne Avenue/Ash Hill. I do need help how to appeal this as I was not blocking any car the box was clear except the back of my car.

  82. Jack says:

    I have received a PCN for stopping in a YJB. I believed I was turning right from Parkfield Rd into Lewisham Way, London SE14 at the time and was blocked by another vehicle turning right, ahead of me. The two pictures on the PCN did not however show me turning right. I therefore called TFL to order a video of the alleged contravention so I could decide whether to pay or make a representation and was assurred the “days elapsed” countdown had been stopped. After several further calls to report that I had not received the DVD, I finally did, two months later ! The DVD does show me turning right into Lewisham Way. Am I right in my interpretation of the Highway Code Rule 174 that no contravention had been committed?

  83. Frank says:

    I entered the infamous Talgarth Road box junction with the mind that there was enough space for one more car, which there was, but one driver stopped short and took up more space than was necessary meaning that I had to stop for 5 seconds until he decided to move forward. Is it worth putting in an appeal or should I just pay the fine?

    Thanks in advance.

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